DS - A reluctant sale

MULLEY · Post by **MULLEY** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:23 pm

Interesting description.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CITROEN-ID-21-BRE ... 240%3A1318

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:10 pm

I *love* that, but could never contemplate paying so much money for a car! £350 is as yet the most I've ever paid for a vehicle, and I had to think long and hard about it...

maxgreenwood · Post by **maxgreenwood** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:30 pm

i'm dreaming.. my ideal car

demag · Post by **demag** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:28 pm

Although as rare as hen's teeth, the interior looks a bit rough and that driver's seat is not very clever at all. So does the rarity give it a value of 8 grand in that condition?

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:43 pm

How is it possible that Citroen can make some very lovely saloon/hatchback cars, and such nasty estates?

DS. Saloon is lovely, Safari is nasty.
CX. Saloon is beautiful, Safari is ungainly at best.
BX. Hatchback is a smart car. Break is a bit of a hotch-potch of panels.

About the only nice estates that Citroen have ever made is the GS and the Xantia.

demag · Post by **demag** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:53 pm

I do actually like the DS estate. It has that traditional Citroen Gallic charm about it as well as being an incredible motor car. However I never really got on with the GS estate. I thought the saloon was a stunningly beautiful timeless design, even more so the GSA as I like the more modern frontal treatment given to the bumpers. But for me the estate just seemed to get away from them somehow.

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:42 am

DavidRutherford wrote:How is it possible that Citroen can make some very lovely saloon/hatchback cars, and such nasty estates?

DS. Saloon is lovely, Safari is nasty.
CX. Saloon is beautiful, Safari is ungainly at best.
BX. Hatchback is a smart car. Break is a bit of a hotch-potch of panels.

About the only nice estates that Citroen have ever made is the GS and the Xantia.

It's strange, I take your point that the breaks tend to look ungainly, but I have to say that although the D Safari is something of an eccentric contrivance, I do think that it looks rather splendid (although there is something vulgar about the uncovered rear wheels).

The CX Safari I think looks grand from any angle, and is rather nicely balanced, unlike the GS Estate, which can look rather stumpy from certain angles.

Back on topic with the BX, the estate is rather bizarre, using the hatch rear doors giving an 'interesting' side profile, and the tailgate seemingly constructed in the most simple manner possible to fill the abyss at the rear did end up with a window that does not extend terribly low and so makes reversing into things something of a risk... But yet despite all this, I have always found the BX to be (despite its comfort and refinement) a utilitarian vehicle, and the somewhat rustic nature of the estate fits with the rather bold and economical Marcello Gandini? lines of the original design. Not only that, it is an exceptionally practical loadcarrier, and although others, for eg. the Xantia, are a more *elegant* estate, with their elegance is at the expense of ultimate loadcarrying ability in having a crap shaped hold...

So for me, the BX estate 'works', and of course my considered opinion is not at all biased by the fact that I own one

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:49 am

And on another note, it rather amuses me that Citroen never even bothered design a mark 2 back bumper for the BX Estate, it makes do with the mark 1 bumper camouflaged with a bit of rubber strip...

Philip Chidlow · Post by **Philip Chidlow** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:28 am

I have always thought that they missed an opportunity with the BX estate: Adhering to the angle of the rear door line, they sloped the rear hatch window to the extent that it (IMO) restricted load space - it always seems to 'get in the way' if you are carrying something boxy and large like a fridge freezer. They could have designed it with a more upright tailgate, I'm sure.

I feel a bit of Photoshoppage coming on.

Competely O/T - why didn't Mercedes make a 190 estate? It would have been a winner I'm sure.

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:22 pm

Philip Chidlow wrote:I have always thought that they missed an opportunity with the BX estate: Adhering to the angle of the rear door line, they sloped the rear hatch window to the extent that it (IMO) restricted load space - it always seems to 'get in the way' if you are carrying something boxy and large like a fridge freezer. They could have designed it with a more upright tailgate, I'm sure.

I feel a bit of Photoshoppage coming on.

Competely O/T - why didn't Mercedes make a 190 estate? It would have been a winner I'm sure.

Fair comment; the severe angle of the hatch isn't conducive to fitting in large square objects, unlike the nice deep and flat sided space within. It is interesting that PSA took very much the same approach to creating the 405 estate, which given the more upright rear doors of the 405 saloon gave a much flatter tailgate. Would be interested to see a Childlow photo-shopped BX estate

I'm with you on the Merc 190 front too, a 190D Estate would be a thing of great joy (altho I must concede that they are neither particularly economical nor swift...)

DavidRutherford · Post by **DavidRutherford** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:35 pm

jonathan_dyane wrote:It is interesting that PSA took very much the same approach to creating the 405 estate, which given the more upright rear doors of the 405 saloon gave a much flatter tailgate.

Look again. The rear doors of a 405 estate have a steeper angle than the 405 saloon. You can see this as the fixed quarterlight is quite different. Consequently, I think the 405 estate looks quite good, not least because in general, I always think an estate car looks better if the rear doors have been designed to suit. The BX is a case in point. Hatchback doors = odd design. CX / 405 / Xantia / GS etc.etc. look good because they were designed properly.

jonathan_dyane wrote: a 190D Estate would be a thing of great joy

Surely that market was taken by the W124 Estate? (along with its citroen derived self-levelling at the back.)

jonathan_dyane · Post by **jonathan_dyane** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:44 pm

DavidRutherford wrote:
jonathan_dyane wrote:It is interesting that PSA took very much the same approach to creating the 405 estate, which given the more upright rear doors of the 405 saloon gave a much flatter tailgate.
Look again. The rear doors of a 405 estate have a steeper angle than the 405 saloon. You can see this as the fixed quarterlight is quite different. Consequently, I think the 405 estate looks quite good, not least because in general, I always think an estate car looks better if the rear doors have been designed to suit. The BX is a case in point. Hatchback doors = odd design. CX / 405 / Xantia / GS etc.etc. look good because they were designed properly.

Well I never! Just looked at some pics and of course you are quite right on the doors front. I do like the 405 (and *love* the series 1 dash) but the 305; now you're talking! There's a nice 305 van lying around near where the parents live, and the urge to knock at the owners door is strong, but I must resist...

DavidRutherford wrote:
jonathan_dyane wrote: a 190D Estate would be a thing of great joy
Surely that market was taken by the W124 Estate? (along with its citroen derived self-levelling at the back.)

I guess MB thought so, but the W124 estate is a bit big. I don't know why, but I have always admired the 190...

Philip Chidlow · Post by **Philip Chidlow** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:00 pm

I'll do a 'rendering' of a BX estate "what if" later. In the meantime, the 190 was quite a lot smaller than the W124... I know, I owned both - and a 300SE too (not that that would've made a nice estate

) It's like a BMW 3-series touring vs a 5-series touring.

Sorry this is going a bit OT...
Any other saloons that would've made good - or bad - estates? Jaguars and Astons are not good candidates, whereas a Pug 605 might've for instance (except on market share/economic/sense grounds

)

BX Bandit · Post by **BX Bandit** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:56 pm

The hatch/saloon vs estate debate is always good....
DS - prefer saloon but I can see the appeal of the estate
BX - hatch wins, estate horrible but practical (sorry guys)
CX - hatch wins - but estate close
XM - hatch wins - nearly orrible but stoopidly huge!
Xantia - hatch wins, Estate OK
C5 current - not seen one but I suspect Estate looks better
C5 old - Estate by far
405 - Estate by far
Laguna - hatch (That estate is just balsa wood and glue gun stuff!)
BMW Z3 - ummm Well, apart from being awful, the Estate version (oh sorry, the er Coupe version) was more pointless than the roadster!
Morris Minor - take your pick!

Phil, wasn't there an XJS estate or some sort of extended rear type thing?
How about a BMW X5 Estate for the super dooper bored and wealthy got to have something different
Or - a 2CV estate!

BX Bandit · Post by **BX Bandit** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:26 pm

Knew I'd seen one. An XJS Eventer it's called

Complete with dodgy paint matching!!