Advice on autos?

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:42 pm

Got a mate with a 16Trs auto.
When he bought it, the specialist who had serviced it had run it on Dexron3, a common thing out here (specs state Dex2)

as a result, the internals were black although the car had regular changes.
Trying to do the right thing, he set about trying to flush the Dex3 out by doing a series of oil changes using Dex2 but it decided to crack up anyway.
Upon removing the base plate, he found the filter was clogged and so cleaned it. This seemed to do the trick for a while but now, it loses forward drive without warning. When it does, he has to stop for 10 - 20 seconds, drop it back into drive and off it goes. It seems also to make a sound like fluid splashing around in it when this happens; anyone got any clues as to what it might be?
Initially, we thought the blocked filter may have been starving the pump and stopping for a few seconds allowed it all to settle and refill the pump. To give a start example of how unpredictable it is, he has just been on a 2000 klms+ trip with no problems, yet when he arrived back to his home town, he gets caught at a red light. Light changes, he drives off and as it rolls forward it loses its drive; counts to 20 and drives home OK and this was the first time it played up over the entire journey.
Anyone any clues, theories or suggestions?

Alan S

tom · Post by **tom** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:16 pm

These things work on hydraulically controlled valves, a sort of height corrector on acid. The slightest solid contaminant can cause them to stick and jump. I suspect that cleaning th evalve block would clear the fault but it is akin to watchmaking so I'd try a few more fluid changes. It can often take three or four to clean them fully because the torque converter hangs on to a bit.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:10 pm

Thanks Tom.
How involved is it to remove, clean and refit this valve block?
Reason I ask is that he bought a 20 litre drum of Dex2 when he bought the car and apparently has only about 2 litres left at present, the rest having been put through as flushes, so I expect it to be a problem that's possibly been more created by flushing than will be cured by them.

Alan S

ken newbold · Post by **ken newbold** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:54 pm

Like Tom says, very close to watch making. I once stripped one down just to find out

Dont even think of doing it, is my advice. If you ever intend the car running again.

I dont think I've any of the bits left now or I could post some photos to deter you.

They really are beyond DIY.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:01 pm

The owner is a retired engineer with many years Citroen experience who keeps as a matter of course things like seal and O ring kits for Citroen hydraulic pumps and is in the vintage car club scene in a big way, so he's used to tackling the impossible providing he has a few tips and clues to know where he's heading.
These autos are a bit foreign to him, but I'm pretty sure if he can get his head around what the principles are and have a pic showing an exploded view, he'll sort it.

Alan S

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:53 pm

I think the official citroen manual is on Bob Smith's site. its a 2.1m PDF which normally would cause me problems on my dialup setup but it sems if i load acrobat reader first its much quicker.

http://www.rwbsmith.plus.com/citroen2/

jeremy

Culasse · Post by **Culasse** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:50 am

You probably need a lot more than 20 litres of oil to flush out the old stuff. The torque converter holds a large amount of oil that cannot be drained off. Nearly a litre I would guess.
Its not something simple like an adjustment of the linkage from the selector is it ?

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:05 am

Thanks one and all for the info & comments to date.
With regards to Bob's site and the manual that is there, it's been a great help (as always) but according to this guy, they have 2 manuals; one that contains general maintenance and adjustments, (the one on the site) and one that contains the heavy stuff that mere mortals might die if they were to cast their evil eyes on; that's the one with the info on stripping down valve blocks and the like.
As a result of Bob's site info and comments from others, yourselves included, he's ordered a new filter block and a new valve block so as soon as they arrive, I've volunteered to go up there and assist in the stripping down and rebuilding of the box.
In the meantime, he'll continue to keep flushing the transmission (@ around 2.5 litres per flush) just in case it clears, but at this stage it appears to possibly be a piece of solid stuff that's causing all the problems.
Be interesting to see how long it takes and how much the valve block costs so as to compare the $4500 quoted cost to "rebuild" the tranny.

Alan S

tom · Post by **tom** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:26 pm

Find some way of draining and washing out the converter while it is off Alan or you'll be back where you started but poorer

Stewart (oily!) · Post by **Stewart (oily!)** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:42 pm

I swapped one of these boxes in a pug a while back, the old convertor was kicking around my garage for a bit, red stuff kept on leaking for ages (interesting juxtaposition of red, green and nightmare black of used diesel oil on the floor of garage, tate modern anyone?)

Stewart

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:55 pm

tom wrote:Find some way of draining and washing out the converter while it is off Alan or you'll be back where you started but poorer

Fear not Tom, this guy is something to work around, a tradesman from the old school.
If he goes to move something and doesn't have the correct tool, rather than take to it with a hammer or do as I tend to namely use my initiative and a bit of innovation to get it out, he heads off to the lathe and makes the right tool. He was involved in my starter rebuild and stripped, remachined, replaced bearings, replaced anything that was replaceable. He is so precise that when he did the pinion seals on his steering, he removed the entire assembly from the car and totally stripped and rebuilt the entire thing from the steering wheel to the rack ends, so once it's out ane we get into it between is, it will be as good as or better than a new one.
I'm looking forward to the job (challenge)

& seeing the results.

Alan S

Geoffrey Gould · Post by **Geoffrey Gould** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:15 pm

Hi alan s. Been talking to a repairer here because of problems I had, he reconds that there are 3 areas of trouble.
1. Brake band wear/failure.
2. Torque converters being full of crud and failing.
3. Oil pump failure, very carefully check for wear and cracks in casing.

Kick down cable adjustment wrong allowing a small amount of "slip" that is almost undetectable filling the box with muck. Dexron 3 !!! as you know.
Standing causing a stuck up valve chest.
Clutch pack failure.
As a matter of interest a box built to the latest spec. by ZF in Germany is about £2700-00. Dont ask how I know.
Gearbox castings are no longer available, are like hens teeth. Oil pumps which are a large lump are still available.
ZF and or JAG in America can supply all the "wearing" bits and Manuels.
Cheers.
Geoff.

tim leech · Post by **tim leech** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:19 pm

So basically if the auto box plays up its fooked!

tom · Post by **tom** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:32 pm

No, Tim. Specialists (People who can both read and UNDERSTAND instructions, which they then follow,) with the time and the tools can repair or install anything. Pay no mind to Alan's bluster. I know for a fact that he is a good engineer. If he says that somebody else is one, that is good enough for me. Good Luck guys, Betcha it is just dirt so my money's on you.

AlanS · Post by **AlanS** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:18 pm

I'm not into posting e-mail contents on forums, but I forwarded on the info above to a couple of guys for future reference and have had some thankful responses.
Below is a response from a guy who manages a large European Car repairers workshop over here. These specialise in mainly German stuff and I understand Saabs and Beemers also use the ZF boxes similar to the ones used by Cit and Pug models.
Reason I'm posting this apart from the fact that it may be of future benefit to someone with auto problems, is that according to someone on aussiefrogs, ZF have (since I brought this ATF problem to light) altered their online information which basically says tyat either Dex2 or Dex3 can be used in their transmissions.
Why they would do that seems to be a total mystery to anyone who has had experience with long term Dex3 contamination which was the intitial cause of this box here.

Thanks Alan didnt know about the kickdown but usually adjust them a little on the loose side with the pretext if you really want a down shift then do it manually so set them a bit loose and lazy so by default It sounds like I might have been doing a few boxes a favour. Thanks as I will keep that in mind when I inspect them. I do know about the DX11 verses DX111 and would never use D3 where a D2 is specified even though I have seen oil companys says its ok and a upgrade over D2. My experiance with Pug Autos says different. When I start my own bussiness I think I will invest in one of those trans oil machines that pumps all the oil out including the converter and we know how much these little suckers hold. Most failures I see are band/ brake failure with the occasional pump failure. Last I knew a basic rebuild no pump was $1200.00 to $1350.00 but if it needed a pump then it pushed it to $1800.00
Cant help but think how many stuff up with wrong oil. I have seen ZF boxes with 450,000 klms on them no rebuild, they leak all over but I attribute this mileage to correct D2 and proper change intervals. Thanks again for the tech info and I appreciate it. Never to old to learn I say. Thanks again Alan Cheers

Even with the weight of evidence as to the damage caused and even the fact that someone has also claimed from personal experience that the two fluids won't even mix, we are still getting some out here determined to use the wrong oil. Could it be that some may now be covering their tracks in case action is taken against the repairers for using fluid against the makers advice, the oil companies for incorrect advice and even the car dealers for also being involved so the 'goal posts' have been shifted to make this legal process more complicated and costly or is it just being done by an I/T person and not on the advice of their Chemists and engineers?
Bloody weird to say the least.

Alan S