Considering a BX - What are they like?

[Joshy]

Hello there.

A bit of an introduction is in order - My name is Josh, I live in London and I'm 18 years old. I currently drive a 205 XS, but I am in the process of replacing it with something a little more comfortable... which lead me here.

I've been weighing up my options for a replacement for the 205, and by complete and utter chance decided to try my luck at getting a quote for a BX GTi 16v (after I was drooling over the thought of a MI16 powered 205!)... turns out not only can I get insured on one, but it's ridiculously cheap, probably due to not many 17/18 year olds wanting one!

To be honest, I reckon a BX could be utterly ideal for me. I'm after something that is going to retain the fun of the 205 with a bit more room and comfort.

What I do have a few worried is about is namely the suspension. A bit of limited research says that the spheres should be pretty easy and cheap to replace (and need to be done regularly). Is this still the case?

Is the suspension a bit... wallowly? I know I said I'm after a bit of comfort, but I would enjoy to do the odd track day/cruise along some B-Roads. As an apprentice mechanic for a bentley garage I have gotten to sample the legendary Hydropneumatic suspension from the passenger many times. While the ride comfort is second to none, I'm not sure how they would deal with Brands Hatch!

I don't suppose there is any way to improve the GTi suspension much further either?

And what's this deal I've read about them all having height adjustable suspension?

Other general questions are:

Rust - From the bit of reading I've done here, it doesn't seem to be an issue?

Day to Day running - Are they

Reliability - I know most of it will come down to the engine (which I understand can become a bit tired after 100,000 miles plus?), but in general are they reliable cars

Brakes - Are they really as good as I've heard?

Interior - What should I expect in terms of interior quality? Are BXs well screwed together? (my 205 isn't )

Weight - Do they really weigh between 900kg and - 1100kg? Not massively important, but for what is quite a large car I expected them to weigh a bit more

How much should I expect to pay for a 16V GTi? A scan of your adverts shows one for £700!

Any other BX models I should consider if you recommend me not to go for a 16v GTi?

Thanks for the time

Josh

[Philip Chidlow]

Welcome to the club. Well, you're obviously going to get a slightly biased view on here...

A few responses - I'm sure there'll be more:

Is the suspension a bit... wallowly? I know I said I'm after a bit of comfort, but I would enjoy to do the odd track day/cruise along some B-Roads. As an apprentice mechanic for a bentley garage I have gotten to sample the legendary Hydropneumatic suspension from the passenger many times. While the ride comfort is second to none, I'm not sure how they would deal with Brands Hatch! The 16v is a fast road car and the suspension is a remarkably suitable set up for that. Comfort is important not just sheer performance, after all. In fact, IMHO, it inspires more confidence than you'd believe, but it's important to remember, this car was designed - in essence - over 25 years ago. So there are better handling cars! It is not, at the end of the day, an unqualified success as a track day car. That said, there's no reason you couldn't have an enjoyable blast on a circuit (plenty do) and the engine is arguably better suited to it than the suspension so gives plenty of rewards. But it's no uncompromising sports car.

I don't suppose there is any way to improve the GTi suspension much further either? Not really, if I understand it right. Choice of tyres is vital.

And what's this deal I've read about them all having height adjustable suspension? Not applicable to sporty driving. It's there to raise the car up several inches to help on rutted tracks/floods or higher to change a wheel. Some have cut a 'notch' slightly lower than standard for use on high-speed cruising, so the car rides a little lower but it has apparently little effect and might actually be bad for the car(?).

Other general questions are:

Rust - From the bit of reading I've done here, it doesn't seem to be an issue? Seeing as the BX is going to be at least 16 years old, I'm afraid even the resilient BX is starting to suffer. But not too badly in many cases. And the problem areas are well-documented on here.

Day to Day running - Are they Yes lol.

Reliability - I know most of it will come down to the engine (which I understand can become a bit tired after 100,000 miles plus?), but in general are they reliable cars No worse than most and certainly better than you'd expect. I've had 13 BXs over the years and since 1993 nver been stranded. (Oops, shouldn't have said that!)

Brakes - Are they really as good as I've heard? Pretty much the best I've experienced. Once you get used to them.

Interior - What should I expect in terms of interior quality? Are BXs well screwed together? (my 205 isn't ) Interiors can be worn now, but in general they fare well, Certainly the velour (GTi/TZD/16v) seats do. I've seen cars half a BX's age looking tired and shabby in comparison. It's all down to what sort of life it's had. Well-screwed together? They're French. But not too bad!

Weight - Do they really weigh between 900kg and - 1100kg? Not massively important, but for what is quite a large car I expected them to weigh a bit more I think a 16v weighs in about 1070kg giving a nice power to weight ratio.

How much should I expect to pay for a 16V GTi? A scan of your adverts shows one for £700! Anywhere between £600 and £1300.

Any other BX models I should consider if you recommend me not to go for a 16v GTi? I'd also consider the 8v GTi - it's a better day-to-day car (although good ones seem to have dried up recently) and don't discount the TZD Turbo diesel - that's a great drive too.


I hope this is of some help. Others might want to add to the above (and contradict!)...

[Dollywobbler]

A few years back, I owned a seriously ropey BX 16v. It had clocked up about 170,000 miles and been thrashed for everyone of them. I only owned it for a short time, but drove all over the place in it. It was totally reliable even if it was rough! Insane amounts of fun.

Now I've got a 1.9 diesel. Totally different but beautifully comfortable and practical. I just had it serviced and the bill (albeit with a few freebie parts...) came to less than £100.

A BX will never have the chuckability of the 205, but I still find you can hurl them into corners with enough enjoyment. They do roll a bit, but don't wallow like say a DS or 2CV.

[mat_fenwick]

All I can really add to that is that the 16v is a cracking engine, I've never driven a BX 16v but been a passenger, and they do handle more tautly than the standard models. It will be a bit different from your 205 though! (We had an XS about 7 years ago, and have got fond memories of it).
The reason for the surprisingly light weight is partly down to a plastic bonnet and boot lid, and I suspect fairly thin panels as they dent easily. As a result they aren't much slower than a Mi16 205...

Good luck in your search!

[akarso]

What I do have a few worried is about is namely the suspension. A bit of limited research says that the spheres should be pretty easy and cheap to replace (and need to be done regularly). Is this still the case?

spheres are easy to replace or refill, but consider all the hydraulic pipes which may require changing after all these years. Not far from where I live there is a garage in which You can replace all the pipes with ones made of special alloy. Rubber pipes sholud be thoroughly examined too.

Is the suspension a bit... wallowly?

I'd describe it as a nice compromise between handling and comfort. But it's not like a set of kayaba AGX on hardest setting coupled by eibach springs. Low profile tyres should help.

I don't suppose there is any way to improve the GTi suspension much further either?

well, You might firm the suspension using higher pressure in the spheres, but I doubt if it's worth the hassle.

Reliability - I know most of it will come down to the engine (which I understand can become a bit tired after 100,000 miles plus?), but in general are they reliable cars

generally, yes. But the more simple setup, the better, so 1.9D should be most reliable engine

Brakes - Are they really as good as I've heard?

they are... effective. But they tend to be "bipolar" in work, and pedal feel is specific. Stopping power depends (again) on tyres You have. AFAIK there is also small room for improvement, because of specific design (central hydraulic installation), all You can do is swap for xantia calipers, or just put ventilated brembo discs and ferodo pads.

Interior - What should I expect in terms of interior quality? Are BXs well screwed together? (my 205 isn't )

interior is cosy, but different pieces of it have a tendency to fall off. You have to screw it again together using silicone spray, felt tape and new set of bolts.

Weight - Do they really weigh between 900kg and - 1100kg?

yes, they do

Any other BX models I should consider if you recommend me not to go for a 16v GTi?

maybe GTi 8v, but I've never driven one, so i don't know. But floored 16v is certainly quicker

[mat_fenwick]

One more thing - brakes.
They are good, very little pedal movement but certainly plenty of power there. However I've found that there are fairly prone to fade. I have the 16v set up on my estate (only difference is vented front discs and wider calipers) and after 20 minutes of spirited driving found the stopping power reduced. No worse than a 205 GTi I reckon, but the next upgrade I'll do on the brakes will aim to improve the heat dissipation.

[Philip Chidlow]

aim to improve the heat dissipation.

BX Speedline alloys don't help, they do a pretty good job of limiting airflow and they consequently keep the heat in. For better performance consider high spec pads (not that I've ever bothered!) and a nice, open wheel design. I don't know if it'd do any good, but on a Ph.2 16v there are false vents either side of the bumper that could be opened up and some sort of ducting fabricated to channel air to the brakes? Just a thought.

[MULLEY]

I've yet to experience anysort of brake fade, perhaps i dont use the brake pedal enough

All the models have an inherrently different charachter to them, i own 3 & they all drive quite differently, although each one is great in its own right. The most fun is normally down to how much power the engine has, except the 1400 petrols which i've been told love to rev if thats how you like driving.

I use my txd to work & back every day, which is a 40 mile commute, so its a modern classic which is reliable. The only problems which have caused me to stop were battery related, no mechanical faults to date

The valver is probably the most maintenance prone, purely because most have been hammered by the previous owners, but if the engine work has been done recently, then there are no worries on that front.

I must admit, i wouldnt have thought insurance for an 18yrd old on a valver would be that cheap, perhaps if you have a limited mile policy & keep it garaged with some form of anti theft alarm fitted.

Best of luck with whichever model you decide to go for, they are all rather good once you get used to them.

[Vanny]

Those ALLOY wheels do a cracking job of keeping the brakes cooled a) by profiled suction b) conductive heat discipation, much better than the standard steelies. I don't know anyone with a valver who has over cooked the brakes on the normal roads.

But a valver is flat out, it really isn't relaxed but is a lot of fun. The ultimate BX will always be a turbo diesel, hands down greatest all rounder.

I've towed over 3.5 tonne with a BX, driven for 36hours striaght, and driven 2000 miles in a couple of days. The only car i have ever driven regularly with better fuel economy is an AX 1.5d, and a BX is lighter than a 205!

But then, i'm biased.

[Kitch]

I got my valver when I was 20. insurance is very cheap for the performance, purely for the fact that a BX is a low risk car. How many 18 yr olds ring in with a claim having binned a BX 16v at speed? How many 18yr old's actually own a BX, let alone a valver?!

Anyway, worry not about the suspension. Spheres usually go every 60k, although as replacements are now certainly sitting around on shelfs longer before they're bought, their longitivety is probably shortened. Otherwise the system is simple and reliable. Only problem I ever have is leaks, and half of those are becuase I've taken something apart and not re-fitted it properly. The hydraulic pipes are at the age they're giving way though, so budget to re-pipe the car at some point, but use Kunifer pipe and stainless unions....much cheaper than OE parts and they don't rust!
The suspension is fairly wallowy, even on a valver (although a 205 XS in standard trim isn't a million miles off....just lighter.) The ride in a valver is more figdety than a regular BX, mainly due to the firmer anti-roll bars (thicker still on the ph2 valvers). You get more scuttle-shake, but sharper turn-in.
Tracks wouldn't be a problem. At bx16v.co.uk, others have experimented with fitting other Citroen spheres from XM's and such to firm up the ride as required, making it more track worthy. If you are tracking it, a baffled sump has got to be on your list of mods though. They don't have them standard, and the 16v's uprated oil pump can shift oil quickly....sometimes too quickly. Find a long bend, dial in some hard revs and the result, for me at least, was a bent crankshaft!
The performance in standard form cross-country is much better though. In fact on some local roads I doubt I could go quicker in many other cars, as the car can take rough roads at speed thanks to the suspension, leaving you to concentrate on revving it's nuts off (you have to...they have no torque!)
As said, suspension is height adjustable, but for maintainance only. Lowering it slightly by notches only causes it to bottom out more as the spring rate is the same, even though the car sits lower.

Rust - Check around the jacking points & sills, the A-pillar door hinges, the bottom of the B and C-pillars, the boot corners and the inner wings. These are BX weak points, although overall most BX's cope with rust well for their age.

Day to day running - Are they pricey? Mine is...25mpg is the norm, but then it's chipped and I drive it like a tool. It's very short geared, so motorways aren't all that fun about 65-70mph but the ride is good. You can fit a TD 5th gear to lengthen 5th, but that kinda throws the gearing out of sync and it's not really in keeping with the lairy revving nature of the engine, although for a car in constant motorway use I'd definately give it thought.
Comfort, heating, visability and the basic running costs are definately not bad though. In fact with the proper valver bucket seats, comfort is probably one of the car's best assets.

Reliability - engines are strong and most will have been thrashed. This is fine, so long as it's been serviced to suit. Lumpy idles are common, and it's taken me 3-4 years of tinkering to get mine nearly smooth! They're a high compression engine, with massive valves. It's never going to be refined! Mileage isn't an issue unless it's not been looked after. 100k miles plus will generally ensure worn valve stem seals, which won't damage the car but can lead to oil burning. Often confused with duff piston rings. Replacement isn't hard, but it's a head off job. Cambelt is fairly easy in situ, and servicing nice and easy. Clutch change is a PITA, but after a few times you get quicker! Suspension is fine if it's been serviced. Budget for a fluid change and clean the filters. Any weak points in the suspension/hydraulics can ruin a nice car.

Brakes - are immense. No real feel, not really for the driver in you. Heal and toeing especially difficult (and on tracks would be needed....gearboxes aren't that strong!) Braking power is fantastic, and cross-country progress is helped by the anti-dive feature....the nose just does not dive under heavy braking! I've experienced fade a few times having given it some beans, and my weak flow valve caused the steering to die for a while too. But the character and power outweigh the lack of feel, although non-ABS BX's always feel sharper.

Interior - it's an 80's French car, but nothing's fallen off mine. It rattles a bit but the seats are fantastic. A few trim bits need assistance to stay in place, but overall it's been good to me. Visability is brilliant....not on a 205's level but then it's a bigger car. You'll feel at home after a 205.

Weight - yup, 1083kg for a ph2 valver with all it's fibreglass bodykit. Ph1 GTi 16v weighs around 1065kg but doesn't look as good (IMO).

Expect to pay £500 for a usable car with niggles, £800 for a fairly decent example and £1500 tops for an absoloute minter. Personally I'd aim around £700 on one with a good body and spend some time on the mechanicals....it helps to familiarise yourself with the car early on. I paid £770 for mine in 2004, with a duff syncro and a knackered exhaust. A month later the water pump started leaking. I'd spent over £1500 within a few months....but I ended up with a good one (until I blew it up)

Other BX models? For an 18yr old who speaks of the track none come close IMO. The GTi will feel no more impressive than a well-sorted 205 XS IMO. A TD will feel a step backwards in performance although as an everyday tool they are better. My 2nd fave to the valver (excluding LHD Sports and 4TC's) is the GT. It's a mk1, so looks older and more tinny. Not very fast, although quick enough but more of a cruiser. More about character and comfort, but the valver is my favourite if not just for the engine!

[Kitch]

and a BX is lighter than a 205!

But then, i'm biased.

You sure!?

[Linegeist]

Yep! Vanny's definitely biased! Always was!!!

[Philip Chidlow]

profiled suction b) conductive heat discipation,

Yeah, right... really? (Sorry I don't understand! )

Isn't open and airy better? An interesting subject. BTW I have had brake fade on a 16v, roundabout after roundabout on the A120...

[Tourist]

You're 18 and you can get insured on a 16v? How the hell does that work, especially for someone who lives in London.

[MULLEY]

205's are lighter than the bx by a considerable margin, i suppose fully ladened up with 5 beer swilling geezers then i'd agree with Vanny