Wanted - 'smart dipstick' for a 16i

Buy or sell parts etc. Please put 'Wanted' in the title if it is a request for parts.
Post Reply
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Wanted - 'smart dipstick' for a 16i

Post by electrokid »

- the thing that goes into the engine where a dipstick normally goes.

Here's the problem - I have a normal 1.9 diesel, but I'm now the pround owner of an instrument pod from a 16i and I want to get all the extra gauges working properly including oil temp.

Pouring over the drawings at my local Citroen dealer this afternoon we couldn't find a separate sensor for the oil temp so I'm presuming at the moment (corrections very welcome) that the sensor is on the smart dipstick - official title is "oil level probe".

Any other info such as where the oil pressure sensor is - and does anyone have one spare would be bery welcome - thanks.
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
User avatar
mat_fenwick
Moderator
Posts: 7326
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: North Wales
x 19

Post by mat_fenwick »

The oil temperature sender is screwed into the sump, the same as on 205 GTis and the like. With 205s being more popular than BXs it may be worth looking for a specialist breaker who has the sump and sender.
The oil pressure switch is behind the alternator on the XUD - to add the pressure sender I've put in a T piece bought from a hydraulic supplier, although places like Vehicle Wiring Products do sell them for gauges. Space is a bit tight though, and Jaba came up with the good idea of removing the brass grub screw in the end of the head (behind the HP pump pulley) that would feed the vacuum pump on a none hydraulically suspended car.
Image

1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

Ah that's brilliant - thanks Mat :-)

I had checked the oil and water temp gauges by powering them up on the bench then wiring a variable resistor in place of the sensor figuring (correctly) that they would just be thermistor devices. Carefully adjusting the resistor to give specific readings on the gauges - then disconnecting the resistor and measuring it each time gave me resistance to temp curves for both gauges.

Despite the scales on the gauges being slightly different, the corrolation between resistance and temp is the same for both gauges - eg: at 100 degrees C the resistance is 130 ohms.

So I figured they would have done the sensible thing and used the same type of sensor for both situations - part of the reason I went to the Citroen dealer - the plan was to find the part number of the water temp sensor the go looking around the engine for another sensor with the same part number. We completely failed to find the oil temp sensor on the engine drawings let alone anything with a similar part number - hence my incorrect presumption that it could be incorporated in the 'smart dipstick'.

My local (and very helpful) motor spares shop had already supplied me with a water temp sensor - Intermotor 52220 - but that is NOT the correct one (so it got returned). Sticking it in boiling water and measuring its resistance gave a reading of 170 ohms - the effect of using it on the car would be that the gauge would show a comfortable 90 degrees just before the engine blew up in a cloud of steam - not quite what was wanted.

I've got another one from eBay - an "SP.5191" -made by Automotive Electrical Components originally for a Talbot ! ! and that reads 130 ohms in boiling water so that's just the ticket. I've seen the number "XTT111" quoted in some parts books and I have bought one on eBay but it's not here yet - I'll test it when it arrives.

So the temp gauges are on their way to being sorted - and I now know what I'm looking for in terms of the oil pressure sender ! Thanks for sorting that out for me Mat - much appreciated :-)
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
User avatar
mat_fenwick
Moderator
Posts: 7326
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: North Wales
x 19

Post by mat_fenwick »

I bought the water temp sender from a dealer, back in 2004. I should be able to get the part number so you can either ask Citroen or use it for cross referencing, if the one you have does not show the same linearity across its range. (You can easily get within 0.1°C of zero with a mixture of ice cubes and water in a Thermos flask, or within 0.005°C if you aerate the water).

I work in temperature calibration so your testing is up my street. Incidentally, depending on the thermistor/instrument you can get precision in the range of 0.001 to 0.0001°C over a narrow range, although probably not using standard PSA parts.... I did actually check the oil temperature sender once by putting a calibrated thermocouple in place of the dipstick, and get agreement (as best I could determine) of within a degree!

I have an oil temperature sensor in the garage, however the stud is bent (not by me!) and a nut will not screw onto it. Yours if you want it.
Image

1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

I work in temperature calibration

Interesting... I think I'm sorted on the temp gauges - thanks for your help. I was boiling water in a stst vessel on the hob and measuring with a digital thermocouple thermometer to confirm - it was reading between 100 and 101 degrees which is close enough - I think you might find http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/chang/boiling/index.htm interesting.

I've worked as a contractor in electronics test / service / design etc since 1979 - some of it interesting, some of it deadly mind-numbing.

One of the very interesting jobs was helping with the design of firefighting equipment for the Boeing F22 Raptor - dozens of sensors all over the aircraft will sense a fire (due to incoming ordnance) and release suppressant within 5 milliseconds. All the sensors are hooked up to a computer which ultimately drives... just one big red lamp in the cockpit ! ! All the pilot needs to know is "should I stay or should I go" :-)

That's pretty much what I want my temp gauge to tell me :-)
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
User avatar
mat_fenwick
Moderator
Posts: 7326
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: North Wales
x 19

Post by mat_fenwick »

Interesting link, I knew that the boiling point varied but didn't know by that much! For top accuracy over that sort of range we could check by melting pure Gallium (29.7646°C) and Indium (156.5985°C).... Overkill for most real life thermometers though.

Electronics is something I'd like to understand more - I understand electricity and what electronic components do. Just that anything more than simple circuit design takes a lot of thought to get my head around. And whenever I open up a bought item, it always looks far more complicated than I would expect for my understanding of what the circuit(s) does.
Image

1993 1.9 TZD Turbo Estate
1996 3.9 V8 Discovery
1993 VW LT35 campervan
1985 Hyundai Stellar V8
2016 Hyundai iLoad
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

I knew that the boiling point varied but didn't know by that much
Water has some very strange- and mostly unpublished characteristics. One one occasion I needed some distilled water as opposed to the de-ionised stuff. I ran a tube from the wallpaper stripper steam gen into a 5 litre plastic container sitting in an old chest freezer in an outhouse. Only looked at the setup now and then to refill the steam gen but it seemed to be going ok. I shut it down at about 5pm because the plastic container was reasonably full and the water in it was quite hot so not much more condensing going on - except all around the innards of the freezer of course :-)

And here's the strange thing - I put the container of distilled water on a kitchen worktop to cool down and just left it there - my guess was it was about 80 C. Mooching about in the kitchen later on - about 9pm - I went to move the container - it was still piping hot ! ! ! I know that as things get hotter different states are 'unlocked' and this affects the specific heat of a substance - but that was weird !

Anyway - back to another weird subject... the temp sensor I ordered from Citroen arrived today and so did the XTT111 I bought on eBay so this eveing I tested them.

They both read 166 ohms in boiling water - not the 130 ohms I want ! Not only that, the XTT111 has a much larger thread ! !

I'll get there ok but I do feel that somewhere along the line someone is taking the piss :-)

The sensor that works is for the Talbot - but not as I thought for the old cars of that name - digging on the interweb this evening I found a Talbot VAN which used a XUDA engine - so that's where the link is.

While I've been writing this I've had a reply to a question I sent on eBay - didn't actually expect a definitive answer to a question about a 'universal' sensor - but there was - and it's good - 120 ohms at BP. Putting 10 ohms in series will make the cal correct at BP and not affect the curve too much elsewhere (putting parallel resistors across the higher value one was going to really screw that up.

So I'm off to eBay :-)
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
macplaxton
BXpert
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:47 pm

Post by macplaxton »

XTT111? Is that a Commercial Ignition (QH) part number?

http://www.facet.it/ is worth a look if you haven't already.
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

Yes - Commercial Ignition - part of Quinton Hazell. I remember the part had "made in italy" stamped on it.

I remember driving on the elevated section of Spaghetti Junction in '72 at dusk in early winter and seeing the occasional foundry fires still working in the back street mechanicing operations - makes you wonder how much basic manufacturing is still left in the UK.

Thanks for the heads-up on Facet - interesting - I did enter the part number of the sensor I got from Citroen and it returned a Facet part no. ok - looks useful.

CI probably buy from Facet and re-brand giving it yet another part number hence all the confusion. The sensor I have for the Talbot (that is the right one) is also a CI part but in an older looking box - probably an older range of part numbers because according to the eBay seller it too was listed for the BX - part number SP.5191 in a green and orange box rather than CIs current range which, from memory, is in red and blue.
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
macplaxton
BXpert
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:47 pm

Post by macplaxton »

The Facet online catalogue I've found useful as sometimes links to similar senders with the same thread.

I did have some other pages somewhere for senders. If I find them I'll be back.
jacksun1987
BXpert
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:30 pm
Location: lincoln

Post by jacksun1987 »

I know it might not be of any use to u. But i have a 1.6 i speedo with the bottons gages on it rev counter the hole lot going spear
PAUL JACKSON
1991 h reg 1.7tzd hatch in black 159.000 miles had
1992 k reg 1.7 txd hatch in red 179. 000 miles had
Renaul laguna exspessin 02 plate 1.8 16v 75 k had
cosa 1.2 brezze 150 k had
406 glx 1.9 td 170k s reg white got
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

I did have some other pages somewhere for senders. If I find them I'll be back.
My 120 ohm sensore have arrived but I haven't got around to testing them yet...
i have a 1.6 i speedo
Thanks Paul - I bought my 1.6i instrument pod on eBay - cost me £37.87 and there were several other bidders - apparently it's also seen as an upgrade for the 205 etc so it's certainly sellable when your sure you have no need for it.
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
jacksun1987
BXpert
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:30 pm
Location: lincoln

Post by jacksun1987 »

ull kill me if i told u how much i fot mine for off ebay as well
PAUL JACKSON
1991 h reg 1.7tzd hatch in black 159.000 miles had
1992 k reg 1.7 txd hatch in red 179. 000 miles had
Renaul laguna exspessin 02 plate 1.8 16v 75 k had
cosa 1.2 brezze 150 k had
406 glx 1.9 td 170k s reg white got
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

I'm ok with the price - no probs - glad you got a bargain though :-).

The good news ia that the sensors from eBay seller 'autogauges' arrived a couple of days ago and I got around to testing them today. Specification is 120 ohms at 100 C and they all fell between 121 ohms and 125 ohms which is excellent for the gauges on the 16i. Might need to put a 10 ohm in series or trim the input volts to the gauses by a volt or so to make them spot-on. These sensors have 2 wires coming out of the top so one of these needs to be grounded - the other going to the gauge via existing wiring or an extra wire if it's an extra gauge.
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
User avatar
electrokid
1K Away
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: Woking

Post by electrokid »

I stumbled across another couple of interesting links about the strange characteristics of water. I remember someone in the 70s discovered that if you pressurise water to above 6 atmospheres and then freeze it, the ice formed has a different crystaline structure to water frozen at NTP. No real surprise there - but if you allow the ice to thaw and then re-freeze it at normal atmospheric pressure the ice still has the crystaline structure it acquired at 6+ atmospheres !

That still puzzles me - these links update this weirdness - I don't pretend to understand much of this but it's quite interesting stuff.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Twostatewater.php

http://www.btinternet.com/~martin.chaplin/phase.html
1992 BX19 TGD estate 228K Rusty - SORNed
2002 C5 HDi SX estate
Post Reply