Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

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citsncycles
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Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citsncycles »

Some of you who have talked to me either at the X Rally or the Bristol Classic Car Show will have heard this silly idea already, but I thought I'd post this up so that you can all have a bloody good laugh and shoot me down in flames!

I now have all the bits required to put the correct type cylinder head on Timex, so that it'll look pretty close to correct under the bonnet. As the engine in their is a bit of an unknown quantity (it's an '89 engine from god knows where), I'm half expecting to find bore wear, worn rings etc. when I lift the head. This got me thinking about parts availability for a rebuild, which then lead onto other thoughts (as it does)!

Has anyone tried boring out a 1.9 block to take 2.1 pistons? would 2.1 pistons even fit, or would the crown height be too high?

Alternatively, would a 2.1 engine (which I believe is part of the XUD series), take the head and ancilliaries from a 1.9? Would it also fit a BE1 gearbox?

My thinking here is that if it's possible, and I could find either suitable parts or a donor engine, I could build myself a larger capacity NA engine which would look close to standard at the shows while going a bit better. I'm not hoping to get anywhere near the performance of a BX TD, but thought if I was pulling the engine apart anyway I may as well try something a bit different.

I now await all the reasons why this is impossible!
Mike Sims
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citronut »

i dont know the answers to your questions,
but i do know if you have the N/A head gas flowed/ported it make quite a difference in get up and go, also it allows the car to drive happily at 30mph in 4th gear, so in turn bringing the revs down which mean better economy,

not really any more top end though

regards malcolm
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by MULLEY »

I can quite happily drive mine in 5th gear doing 30mph, so i don't understand what you mean malcolm?

If you want some more get up & go, Nitrous may be the best approach, you can flick it on & off when required. Not sure if the N/A engine is particularly suitable though due to fueling?
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citronut »

MULLEY wrote:I can quite happily drive mine in 5th gear doing 30mph, so i don't understand what you mean malcolm?

you might be happy driving it in fifth at 30mph but is the engine happy????,

i was always taught to be in such a gear you have some reserve power and listen to the engine,

regards malcolm
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citsncycles »

Mine will do 30mph in 5th, but it's usually happier in 4th. Another thing to take into account with low revs in high gears is that it can sometimes over stress the gearbox.
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by mat_fenwick »

citsncycles wrote:Alternatively, would a 2.1 engine (which I believe is part of the XUD series), take the head and ancilliaries from a 1.9? Would it also fit a BE1 gearbox?
BX Bandit was looking into this for a turbo engine - I think it would work in theory but there was something unexpected that meant it was a no goer. I'm wondering whether the difference was the crank rather than the bore though, so it may be possible to build the 2.1 crank into your bottom end. My understanding was that the earlier 'correct' square port head didn't flow as well as the later ones so porting it would make sense. Whether that could perform better than a standard oval port head I don't know though...
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by MULLEY »

citronut wrote:
MULLEY wrote:I can quite happily drive mine in 5th gear doing 30mph, so i don't understand what you mean malcolm?

you might be happy driving it in fifth at 30mph but is the engine happy????,

i was always taught to be in such a gear you have some reserve power and listen to the engine,

regards malcolm
Its absolutely fine, its not labouring or knocking like its about to conk out etc...i thought all n/a diesels could do this? Were the gear ratios altered over the lifetime of that gearbox & thats why some cars can & others can't?
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citronut »

MULLEY wrote:
citronut wrote:
MULLEY wrote:I can quite happily drive mine in 5th gear doing 30mph, so i don't understand what you mean malcolm?

you might be happy driving it in fifth at 30mph but is the engine happy????,

i was always taught to be in such a gear you have some reserve power and listen to the engine,

regards malcolm
Its absolutely fine, its not labouring or knocking like its about to conk out etc...i thought all n/a diesels could do this? Were the gear ratios altered over the lifetime of that gearbox & thats why some cars can & others can't?
thats a good point

regards malcolm
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by Way2go »

See diagram 3 in the link re appropriate gear selection to the power band in regard to rev range:

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/ ... XfWHEo7YxE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not that BX n/a diesel & driving fast are two phrases that can be used in the same sentence. :wink:
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citsncycles »

BX Bandit was looking into this for a turbo engine - I think it would work in theory but there was something unexpected that meant it was a no goer. I'm wondering whether the difference was the crank rather than the bore though, so it may be possible to build the 2.1 crank into your bottom end. My understanding was that the earlier 'correct' square port head didn't flow as well as the later ones so porting it would make sense. Whether that could perform better than a standard oval port head I don't know though...
If the crank is responsible for the increase in capacity, then it'll be longer stroke, so depending on how far up the piston the pin goes, it may not fit the 1.9 block. I'll have to look up the bore / stroke figures for each to see where the change is. As far as I know, the ports are the only change between the early and late engines, so porting will be a good idea, whatever the improvement. If the current block, crank and pistons are good, and the 2.1 idea isn't a goer, then a porting and polishing session, along with a TD exhaust should go some way to narrowing the gap between early and late engine output.

I think I'm going to have to locate a 2.1 engine and try to compare dimensions, stud positions etc. to see what the differences are. I have come across engines where they increased the number of head studs when they changed the material used to make the head or the capacity of the engine in order to strengthen the joint, which would stop such a project in it's tracks.
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by JayW »

Bandit still has the 2.1 in the pipeline, it "REQUIRES" the BX turbo head for some reason i can't remember :roll:

As for nitrous on a diesel, no additional fuel is required, it's termed a "dry" system for this reason and is REALLY simple to install. But, it's an expensive way around the problem, N2o isn't cheap!

If all these ideas are being thrown around i'd just go for fitting the 17 or 19td like Mat has.
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citronut »

citsncycles wrote: and the 2.1 idea isn't a goer, then a porting and polishing session, along with a TD exhaust should go some way to narrowing the gap between early and late engine output.
my last workshop landlord does cylinder head work for a living, he ported my old N/A diesel a few years ago,

he does a lot of work on racing cars and bikers,

he says polishing is a waste of time as you dont want the ports shinny smooth, just remove all the lumps, bumps and rough casting/undulations, this is what helps the gas's flow in and out smoother

regards malcolm
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by BX Bandit »

Right, here goes:
A stock 2.1 (xud11a/bte) will fit - some Romanian or Bulgarian lunatics have done it. However, it was not a simple swap. The water pump and thermostat housing is bigger and would foul with something (octopus piping for the o/s front strut I think). I was in touch with one of the crazy foreigners who said "never again" when referring to the fouling issue above. Preferring to keep things as original as possible, I chose a different route.

First though, a little about the crank shaft and pistons.
The crankshaft is the same for 1.7 and 1.9 variants.
The 1.9 has larger diameter pistons.
Both 1.7 and 1.9 pistons are the same apart from their diameter.

The crankshaft on the 2.1 has 1mm extra throw (i.e. 2mm extra stroke)
The pistons on the 2.1 are bigger again than the 1.9.
The gudgeon pin/little end bearing is bigger than the 1.7/1.9
The pistons are shorter (as measured from centre of gudgeon pin to top of piston) to compensate for the extra throw.

The DW10ATED - the PSA 2.0 hdi unit has the same throw on the crankshaft as the 1.7 and 1.9, but the diameter of pistons.
So, my plan was to use a 2.0 hdi block, with the 2.1 crank/pistons and a standard head.
2 problems:
1) The crank case on the 2.1 has 1mm removed each side to give clearance for the big end con-rod bolts due to their increased throw
2) The bolts holes and dowel locations to carry the fuel pump were different. Due to the angular surfaces and webbing in that area I concluded that accurately drilling and tapping the holes required was virtually impossible (although in hind sight a machine shop may of been able to do it)

So my only way forward is to bore a 1.9 block to take the 2.1 pistons at a cost of £180. I will also have to consider how best to remove material in the crank case for the big end con-rod bolts.

Other considerations are:
Will a bored 1.9 block be strong enough?
Will the smaller water pump give sufficient cooling?
Will the standard 1.7 timing belt tensioner be sufficient (a 2.1 has a different tensioner arrangement)
The 2.1 camshaft had 5 bearing journals, a 1.7/1.9 has 3. DW10ATED heads have 5 journals too.

There is a stronger diff in some variants of the BE3 which may not be available in the BE1. One of the foreigners wrecked his diff, although he was putting out silly power - enough to get him 7.5 secs 0-60 iirc.

In essence, it will all fit together and work, it's just if things aren't quite strong enough to deal with that extra torque!
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by citsncycles »

OK, sounds like it may be a goer, just not for me! with the mileage I tend to cover, coupled with my 'enthusiastic' driving style, I'd probably end up either breaking things on a regular basis, or having to modify it more than I'm willing to in order to make it reliable. Again, if it was a Mk2 I'd have no problem doing stuff like this, but with Timex being so rare I want it at least visually standard, so will leave it.
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Re: Silly ideas about a go-not-as-slowly NA diesel

Post by mat_fenwick »

But you were thinking of making the 2.1 into a NA unit weren't you Mike? In which case power output would probably be lower than that of a TD, so less likely to cause issues.
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