XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

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Dragon Man
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XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:20 am

hey guys. trying to pool together all of the knowledge on the upper parts of the XUD engine.

when i get this bx i am looking to change the whole cylinder head as i have no idea of the damage which has been done to it. (unless a very low miles complete xud engine comes up for less of the cost)

are 1.7 and 1.9 cylinder heads, cam shafts, injectors, fuel pumps and most other bits bolted to the head interchangeable?

i have noticed that a few other cars with the XUD engine have what looks like the same pulley on the end of the cam shaft too. would this work with the BX's hydraulic pump?

i am no "man in need of speed" but if you were building a cylinder head up out of both 1.7 and 1.9 what would be the best "bits" to use to gain the most horsepower given i have the 1.7 block to start off with?

also if you had the 1.9 non-turbo engine, would all of the turbo gear from the 1.7 just bolt directly on?

thanks!
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by rutter123 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:09 am

The XUD7TE (turbo block) needs an oil supply line for the turbo which comes from the back of the block, i dont think the XUD9 has this. Im also pretty sure the heads are very different tho camshafts are interchangable a 1.9n/a shaft will go in a t/d and gain more low down torque but will prob suffer top end. Is it really worth all the hassle?
I still have a good t/d engine/box here for sale that will bolt straight into a 1.9n/a.
To gain more horses you ideally need a bosch pump which the fuelling can be adjusted and likewise the turbo also has adjustment on the boost pressure but this is dangerous territory unless you really know what you're doing you could cause massive damage.
Or the other option is a 1.9t/d from a xantia.
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:47 am

hmm.. i would love to just keep the 1.7 td to be fair ad it would be more easy.
the only mod i maybe would do is change the fuel pump to the bosch one as i have seen it can support alternative fuels quite well. (i work in a scrap yard.. i can get LOTS of WMO).
i may also look into getting a stainless exhaust made up for it to stop that rotting off when i really dont need it. i have with my others.
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Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by themildbunch » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:28 pm

Bosch pump / N/A camshaft and turbo tweaking are common mods but you really need a boost gauge to check you're not going to do any damage...

If you do a Lucas to Bosch conversion you need Bosch injectors, fuel lines and the correct pump sprocket.. I did this swap and has the wrong sprocket and it was very retarded and ran terribly until warm!

Worth doing though but definitely reseal the pump before you install it if you're going to be using veg or bio diesel..

I think the 1.7 n/a cam is the one to get or the 'wildest' - the 1.7td cam is quite tame I think... not done this mod myself though.

My TD estate with Bosch pump boosts up to a peak of 1.2 bar according to my gauge and has done for a few years now with nothing blowing up... Any more boost though and another intercooler is probably necessary or at least some way of measuring the exhaust gas temperatures... Changing the turbo isn't an easy job with the engine in!
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:38 pm

i should be able to get all the bosch stuff from the local car scrap yard. which cars have them? theres a few 1905cc turboed xud's in at the moment. ill have a look and see if they have the bosch stuff. both 1.7 and 1.9 injectors are the same... right? both will fit both engines?

to be fair i would rather have low down torque than high end revving. i am not one for screaming engines. i do however Love the low grunt diesel engines make under load.. and the turbo whistle.. icing on the cake. strangely enough i quite like the sound of the 1.7 XUD on tick over its the one thing i remember really well from back when i was about 4 or 5.

i am pretty clued up with diesel tuning, a diesel engine is just basically an oil fire. if it smokes black, it needs more air but not enough to bend any rods haha. i have a small forge that i melt ally and copper in (im working on cast iron next.. but i need a bigger blower fan!) the forge runs of waste oil and burns very clean.

so the 1.7 none turbo cam shaft is the one to go for... i will have to keep my eyes open.
does anyone have the dimensions of the lobes of each cam? i have done cam swaps before in my panda 4x4 i went from 6mm to 9.5mm and the difference was incredible. or standard 999cc 45hp cam to the 1242cc "889 cam" the punto 75 and late 60's uses.

just managed to buy a BX (petrol) manual with the "Citroen diesel engine" manual all as one. should make some nice reading material and hopefully have all of those important torque settings in!.

i dont have a boost gauge sadly but i do have a rather nice 50 PSI pressure gauge which should work fine for setting the waste gate. from what i have read on the forum (and other XUD tuning forums) about 20 to 24 PSI of manifold pressure would be fine given everything else is good.

rutter123, thanks for your offer regarding the engine. i just really dont want to put in a 200k engine in a car with 70k.. its kinda a last resort thing.

this will be a no expenses spared project. ive wanted one of these cars for quite some time and im willing to pay for any brand new parts it needs.

given the cylinder head is in good shape, what parts on it would need replacing after a cam belt snap? or would it be more easy to just buy a complete new cylinder head?

also what are the best belts and gaskets to use with the XUD?
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by rutter123 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:12 pm

Lucas pumps run in conjunction with 125psi injectors and Bosch pumps run with 175psi injectors, the two cannot be mixed. The Bosch pumps are rated more than the Lucas but to be fair 4 of my 5 diesels have had Lucas pumps with no problems tho adding extra fuel can be tricky but is possible. You will gain more power with a Bosch and boost valve adjustments are easier. Its up to you what you want to do and how you want to do it.
I always use Gates timing belt kits and buy the best gaskets you can afford.
A well serviced XUD lump with 200k's is as good as a 70k that may not have been looked after IMHO, my current t/d has 291k's on it and still pulls as well as it did when i got it with 95k's serviced every 6/7000 mile swith quality oil and filters should be good for another few hundred k's yet, after all 500,000 was not uncommon for the late 80's early 90's taxi drivers in their 19RD's and TGD's.
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:14 pm

wow i actually thought that the fuel pressure would be much higher than that, no wonder it is indirect injection. i am use to modern common rail diesels running at thousands of BARs of fuel pressure. in a way it is a shame that the modern diesel has so much electronics on it, but in a way its incredible how a modern diesel engine of the same size as the 19 xud can produce 220bhp.. and survive!

i would not do it, but wow if i had the time and a spare XUD engine on a stand i would love to experiment with the fuelling system and see what other pumps can be made to fit it to gain higher fuel pressures given the injectors could have held out. a few lads i know managed to bolt a tractor's fuel pump and turbo to the old banana engine in a transit van it made it a pig to start, but when it was running is was insanely powerful. shame it was only used on a farm.

yes i follow the 6k service rule myself with my pandas. ever since i have had them, they have always had the top brand oils and other service items. though the belts are not very old, i still carry spares with me. i must admit that its a nice feeling knowing that no matter what happens to the cam belt nothing bad will happen. having a none interface engine is quite nice. and its also nice to be able to change a cam belt.. in a pub car park.. in the middle of the night.. in the rain with no jack and minimal tools! sigh..

from the look of it, cam belts look quite hard to do on the diesel BX's. not much space around that end of the engine bay.

thanks for the tips!
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by rutter123 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:23 pm

Yes it is tight on a bx but doable with the fingers of a wizard, pretty easy once cam, pump and flywheel are locked in place, i made a tool to hold the tensioner which makes the job a lot easier.
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:42 am

Cam lift and duration are given in the Haynes manual for the engine - if you don't have a copy I can post up the relevant page.

EDIT - Just noticed you are waiting for the manual.

From what you say I think you would prefer the 1.9 TD...it has more low down torque and feels less revvy. After I did the swap it would pull a gear higher in most circumstances, even when it was standard.

And if you like the sound of a turbo XUD...

https://youtu.be/i_wq5ZaDAw0

Bit of smoke in the mid range if you simply floor it, but fine if you feed in the throttle, and only a hint of smoke at full chat. I found with my trial and error tuning that if I got rid of the mid range smoke it felt flat at the top end, but that may be my lack of skill!
Image

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:18 am

hmm yeah thats what i love.. torque.
hehe that does sound good if only the rolling road was silent.

like i say, we get quite a few 306's come into the local scrappy. most have about 70-100k on the clock. pretty sure they have the 1.9 td version of the XUD.
would have to source a cam and maybe a different rocker cover but it should not be that hard to convert it to fit and run in a BX.

first things first though, i need to actually pay out to get the car moved up here to derby before i go buying any replacement parts.. i am not sure how much its going to cost for transport.

anyone compared both cylinder heads together? i remember with the 1.5 and 1.7 Isuzu engines there was not much difference.

thanks for the info!
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

Fix it Again Tomorrow. no special tools needed, always able to fix it! :)

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Kaapelimies » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:35 pm

rutter123 wrote:Lucas pumps run in conjunction with 125psi injectors and Bosch pumps run with 175psi injectors
Not psi. It's Bar.
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by themildbunch » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:10 am

Dragon Man wrote:i should be able to get all the bosch stuff from the local car scrap yard. which cars have them? theres a few 1905cc turboed xud's in at the moment. ill have a look and see if they have the bosch stuff. both 1.7 and 1.9 injectors are the same... right? both will fit both engines?
Not sure if they're the same but they seem to work fine - I have Bosch injectors and lines from a 1.9TD Xantia and a Bosch pump my local Cit specialist had lying around! It all works well apart from very cold starts on B100. Some of the later pumps have a solenoid cold start advance which often stop working and need an extra circuit to turn them on when the coolant temp is low. The earlier Bosch pumps don't need this I think and the Lucas cold start advance and high idle is controlled together by the waxstat cable..

Worth getting everything cleaned and checked by a diesel specialist and new fire seals and the correct copper washers so you don't have to do things twice.. I think someone on here had the wrong thickness injector washers supplied that caused some issues..
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by MULLEY » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:12 pm

Try getting some quotes on shiply when thinking about getting your car transported, should come in way under £200, i think mine was only £160 all the way from fareham to lincolnshire, bargain :)
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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by Dragon Man » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:12 pm

does anyone have any pictures of the Bosch pump(s)? how can i identify which pump is which? theres an xud come into our local scrap yard and i was interested in getting the better stuff.
- JohnDragonMan

Drives: a classic Panda 4x4 called Project Fallout
classic Panda 4x4 Sisley named Talon
broken BX Diesel Estate in silver that's currently for sale.

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Re: XUD Cylinder heads, Cam shafts, injectors and pumps.

Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:08 pm

This is the Bosch pump, if you can make it out:

Image
Image

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