Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

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David
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Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by David »

I am considering on whether or not to put a TD engine in my BX.

I've always wanted a TD engine in it, but if I was going to do it, then I'd need all the associated parts as well as an engine, as currently it's just a 1.9 NA diesel.

The standard engine in the TD BX is the 1.7TD, but if I was going to do it, I'd like the 1.9TD engine from a Xantia or Peugeot. From my understanding, asides from the different camshaft required, then it'd just be a case of it all bolting together as they're pretty much the same, is this correct or is there more to it? I know that some cars have a different injector pump or built in immobiliser too.

Here's where it gets more difficult and what'd probably be the big things that'd put me off. The car is 4 wheel drive, so, would the turbo fit behind the engine with the transfer box, without modifications to the turbo unit itself?
Would the transfer box put up with the power of a 1.9TD engine? I've seen a GTi 16V 4x4, for instance, and it kept eating transfer boxes.
What are the gear ratio differences between a 1.7 or 1.9 TD and a standard NA diesel gearbox? Are the former 2 the same and the latter just slightly lower geared? (That's what I get the impression of from reading previous posts on the forum anyway). And would a Xantia or 405 gearbox fit straight in a BX?

Another idea I've thought of; is a 6 speed gearbox from a Peugeot. (Did they fit them in the BX at all?). What's the gearing like in them? Is 6th equivalent to 5th in a 5 speed box or is it more of an overdrive? if 6th is the same as 5th, then I don't see any point in looking into it further, but if it is an overdrive, then are the bell housing parts of the gearboxes exactly the same & interchangeable? (This is the only part of the actual gearbox that differs between the 2wd & 4wd gearboxes). I know it'd be a lot of work to swap it over, but I didn't like the low gearing in my Xsara, so if I could bring the RPM down at higher speeds, then I think that it'd be worth it. My ford, for comparison, runs at 70MPH at just over 2000RPM in 6th gear, whereas my Xsara used to run at 70mph at 3500RPM in 5th gear.

I'm also a bit put off because the TD engines are more complicated and therefore have more to go wrong with them, whereas the NA engine is a very basic engine and there's very little to go wrong with it. I'd also have to register it with the DVLA and insurance companies. I still need to register the 4x4 conversion, but I've heard that the DVLA can be somewhat awkward when trying to add modifications.

The owner of Westroen told me that he's seen one TD 4x4 BX years ago, but he didn't know how they'd worked out the mechanical parts for it to all fit together. He wasn't 100% sure on the engine either, although he suspected that it was the 1.7TD.

So, what are your thoughts on this?
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Pcheaven »

Sounds like an Interesting project
If the TD kills the transfer boz with all the torque, can it be fixed. ??

Otherwise. Worry trying.. good luck.
BX Meteor. Sub 20000 miles. Very Original.

ToDo list.

1. ̶G̶e̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶
Have a GnT
2. G̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶d̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶ ̶
Have a GnT
3. Adjust the clutch
Have a GnT
4. Clean LHM tank then a complete flush
Have a GnT
5. Wash, clay bar then ceramic coat paintwork.
Have a GnT
6. Replace rear spheres
Have a GnT
7. Replace bottom hose

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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by white exec »

If the BX 4x4 transfer box/drivetrain is already known for fatigue failure - and problematic to repair when it does fail - than adding considerable additional torque doesn't sound like a good idea. It's the torque figure of the respective engines that is the important one to compare.

A BX 1.9TD with a good 4x2 'box sounds a nice idea, and likely to be hugely reliable and nice to drive, especially given the light weight of the BX body. Must have been done before. Drive shafts might need some research?
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by rutter123 »

Stock 1.9 n/a = 88ft.lb of torque
Stock 1.7 t/d = 130ft.lb of torque
I'm not sure how these compare to a petrol engine. the gearing on both is quite close with just a 100rpm lower on the n/a at 70mph
The t/d engine is all mechanical so not much to really go wrong mines done nearly 300k with no major issues
As for "will it fit" I'm not sure as not familiar with 4x4 layout
You would need an early Xantia (sinker) lump which is much the same as XUD7TE and does fit, conversion has been done before, you can utilise a 306td inlet manifold and front mounted intercooler which may gain you some space down the back of engine?
6sp box I don't know. I assume from a 206gti6?
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Pcheaven »

Gti 4x4 123 flb @2750rpm
16v 133flb @5000 rpm
TGD turbo 134flb @2100 ( non turbo 90flt)
source : 1990 BX brochure
BX Meteor. Sub 20000 miles. Very Original.

ToDo list.

1. ̶G̶e̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶
Have a GnT
2. G̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶d̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶ ̶
Have a GnT
3. Adjust the clutch
Have a GnT
4. Clean LHM tank then a complete flush
Have a GnT
5. Wash, clay bar then ceramic coat paintwork.
Have a GnT
6. Replace rear spheres
Have a GnT
7. Replace bottom hose

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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Kaapelimies »

The transfer box and turbo don't fit at the same time, I'm informed. That's why no TD from factory.. Move the battery to trunk so you can fit the turbo to the place of battery, worked in a gasoline engine :)
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David
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by David »

Thanks everyone for all your input.
Pcheaven wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:18 pm
Sounds like an Interesting project
If the TD kills the transfer boz with all the torque, can it be fixed. ??
In short, it's difficult to fix. if it breaks then all it really needs is the splines replacing in the transfer box & gearbox, which is not that hard to do, the difficult part is actually getting hold of the said splines to replace them with.
white exec wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:44 am
If the BX 4x4 transfer box/drivetrain is already known for fatigue failure - and problematic to repair when it does fail - than adding considerable additional torque doesn't sound like a good idea. It's the torque figure of the respective engines that is the important one to compare.

A BX 1.9TD with a good 4x2 'box sounds a nice idea, and likely to be hugely reliable and nice to drive, especially given the light weight of the BX body. Must have been done before. Drive shafts might need some research?
You're probably right there. I've never actually looked up the torque that comes out of all the engines, and I've read several times that the GTi 4x4, which is an 8 valve, eats transfer boxes too, so it's probably a bad idea. It's probably about at its limit with the 1.9 NA diesel engine that I've got on it at the moment.

Yes, Matt Fenwick has put a 1.9TD engine in his BX. He's done a complete write up on this forum.

From my understanding, the standard BX TD drive shafts should fit straight in, so that wouldn't be a problem. I assume that the GTi shafts should fit too. Most of the parts on the BX are interchangable anyway, for example, on my parts car, I've got a GTi engine, a 1.7 2wd diesel gearbox & automatic driveshafts all mounted together.
rutter123 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:36 am
Stock 1.9 n/a = 88ft.lb of torque
Stock 1.7 t/d = 130ft.lb of torque
I'm not sure how these compare to a petrol engine. the gearing on both is quite close with just a 100rpm lower on the n/a at 70mph
The t/d engine is all mechanical so not much to really go wrong mines done nearly 300k with no major issues
As for "will it fit" I'm not sure as not familiar with 4x4 layout
You would need an early Xantia (sinker) lump which is much the same as XUD7TE and does fit, conversion has been done before, you can utilise a 306td inlet manifold and front mounted intercooler which may gain you some space down the back of engine?
6sp box I don't know. I assume from a 206gti6?
Do you mean that the TD gearbox is 100rpm lower at 70mph? if so that's probably what I've read before, I was just wondering if it's the same gearboxes /ratios that are used on the 1.7 TD & 1.9 TD engines?

I know that they're still fundamentally mechanical engines, but I've read that the Lucas injector pumps are more prone to failure, although If I'm correct, these are mostly fitted to the 1.7's, whereas the 1.9's from Peugeots have the Bosch pumps, which I believe are more reliable. Then I've read stories of the turbos failing, & that they're difficult to access. I've also read about *something* else that fails which causes a loss of boost, but I can't remember what it was. It might've been something in one of the injector pumps, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

The transfer box just sits behind the engine block & it comes up to just below the exhaust manifold & up to the fuel heater & coolant pipes on the back of the engine. If the turbo sits behind the head, then it won't be in the way, but if it sits below that, then it would would hit the transfer box.

I don't think that the intercooler would be in the way, but the turbo & oil feed pipes might be. If anyone has a picture of the back of a complete TD engine, it might be very helpful here. I've got a clear picture of the back of my engine (somewhere) that I might upload to compare.

I can't remember what car the 6 speed box was from, I thought that some special BX models had one fitted. Is this not correct? Either way, does anyone have any experience with one? It'd be interesting to find out what gearing is like in them.
Kaapelimies wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:30 pm
The transfer box and turbo don't fit at the same time, I'm informed. That's why no TD from factory.. Move the battery to trunk so you can fit the turbo to the place of battery, worked in a gasoline engine :)
As far as I'm aware, they only made the BX 4x4 with a couple of petrol engines; the 1.9 GTi & 1.9/or 1.6 carburettor models. I weren't aware that they made a diesel model, let alone a TD model. Could anyone verify this? I once heard a rumour that there were some diesel 4x4's in France, but it could be a myth too.

If the turbo and transfer box occupy the same space, then it could be theoretically overcome by cutting & welding the exhaust manifold in a different place, just avoiding the car's firewall & subframe.

With all the input that I've had here, it sounds like it might be an extremely difficult job to complete. Without having a TD engine & transfer box side by side, I don't think I'll get any definite answers. It also sounds like I'd need to find a good engineering works to build some stronger splines for the transfer box to start with, & possibly re-engineer the manifolds & turbo so it'll all fit together.

I'll have to look into it further, but maybe I might just have to get 2 cars if I want a TD. Perhaps it's not possible to have everything in one car.

Thanks for all the input. If anyone has any pictures of the back of a built up TD engine & some more information, it might come in very useful.
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).

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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by rutter123 »

The t/d 5th gear is defo a different ratio than the n/a (as favoured in the gti box) I shouldn't think there's much in from 1st to 4th, from memory the TD sits at 2950 in 5th at 70mph the na a bit lower
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Pcheaven »

FYI

Mph per 1000rpm in top gear.

79F3FE79-B37D-4100-81EA-A849C7A34CF1.jpeg
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BX Meteor. Sub 20000 miles. Very Original.

ToDo list.

1. ̶G̶e̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶
Have a GnT
2. G̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶d̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶ ̶
Have a GnT
3. Adjust the clutch
Have a GnT
4. Clean LHM tank then a complete flush
Have a GnT
5. Wash, clay bar then ceramic coat paintwork.
Have a GnT
6. Replace rear spheres
Have a GnT
7. Replace bottom hose

Pcheaven
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Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:34 am
Location: Kent
My Cars: Landrover discovery sport 2020
Previously ipace/discovery 5/velar and many others including 2 bx gti back in early 1990
x 11

Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Pcheaven »

And the gti etc
E5A30752-8435-44AE-AED9-719165A9152B.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
BX Meteor. Sub 20000 miles. Very Original.

ToDo list.

1. ̶G̶e̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶
Have a GnT
2. G̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶d̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶ ̶
Have a GnT
3. Adjust the clutch
Have a GnT
4. Clean LHM tank then a complete flush
Have a GnT
5. Wash, clay bar then ceramic coat paintwork.
Have a GnT
6. Replace rear spheres
Have a GnT
7. Replace bottom hose

rutter123
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by rutter123 »

So the TD produces more torque than a 16v by 1ft/lb
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
90 BX Tzd turbo estate 46k awaiting surgery
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52 Toyota Rav4 180k Bulletproof Jap reliability

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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by Pcheaven »

rutter123 wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:33 pm
So the TD produces more torque than a 16v by 1ft/lb

According to the 1990 brochure. A little surprising
BX Meteor. Sub 20000 miles. Very Original.

ToDo list.

1. ̶G̶e̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶
Have a GnT
2. G̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶d̶i̶o̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶.̶ ̶
Have a GnT
3. Adjust the clutch
Have a GnT
4. Clean LHM tank then a complete flush
Have a GnT
5. Wash, clay bar then ceramic coat paintwork.
Have a GnT
6. Replace rear spheres
Have a GnT
7. Replace bottom hose

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white exec
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by white exec »

Not unusual to find TD's producing more torque (but not bhp) than similar high-power petrol engines.

XM is an example...
3.0i V6-24v petrol (ES9) 194 PS, 267 Nm
2.5TD (DK5) 129 PS, 285 Nm

The ECU-controlled TD also offered up the possibility of chipping 8)
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by rutter123 »

Anyways, in answer to Your o/p, yes you should fit a TD engine into your 4x4 pref with a Bosch system as they're more tunable, the Rover 418 used the same engine maybe it had different turbo fitment?
90 BX Tzd turbo 294k SORN undergoing major surgery
90 BX Tzd turbo estate 46k awaiting surgery
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Re: Should I Put A TD Engine In My BX?

Post by David »

Thanks for all the input on this.

For the time being, it looks like I'll leave it as it is. I think that I'd end up causing a massive headache for myself by trying to put a TD engine in it with the 4 wheel drive as it is.

If I can find a decent engineering works that can actually do something & make some stronger transfer box splines, rather than just saying "it can't be done", then I might have a go at doing it.

I think that the parts I would need/ want are: a 1.9 TD engine, a Bosche injector pump, Garrett turbo & all the pipes, intercooler, fixtures & fittings from a BX TD.

In the meantime, I might just keep casually looking for what parts become available. The thread is still open, so if anyone else has any input, feel free to share your thoughts and ideas!
1992 Citroën BX 1.9 Diesel Meteor 4x4 - The Project.

1992 Citroën BX 1.9 TXD (with GTI engine; Mulleys old car) - Parts car.

2004 Citroën Xsara Desire. (Now gone).

2016 Ford Focus Zetec - Daily Driver. (Absolute bone shaker).