Looking at buying a 16V

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by white exec »

Your VIN number looks correct enough (has the requisite 17 digits, in expected format) but - annoyingly - is one of the early-90s BX VINs not recognised by Citroen's vehicle database (ServiceBox), which details build date, and many of the factory fittings to the vehicle.

The other way to age the vehicle is by the 4-digit RP (aka RPO or ORGA) number, which on BX is usually paint stencilled on the A-pillar, between the door hinges...
DSCF3785.JPG
This site (there are others too, just google "RP decoder") will allow you to enter any Citroen RP number and get the ex-factory date:
http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/gen/Gen_Organr.html

Someone else here may be able to decode some of the vehicle details embedded in your VIN.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Cresco750 »

Thanks for that. I don’t recall seeing an ORGA on the A pillars, possibly because it has been painted over when the door hing rust was repaired?
Does it seem reasonable that a 1990 model can still be a P1? I guess I’m trying to confirm whether this is an original car, or has it been the subject of ‘mix and match’ over its lifetime?

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Kitch »

Cresco750 wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:21 pm
Is it possible to confirm a BX’s build date and spec from its VIN? Number is VF7XBEJ0001EJ4702. The vehicle in question is registered as a 1990 model, but was first registered in NZ in August 1991. Odometer is in miles (NZ vehicles normally in Km’s), which suggests it may have been privately imported from the UK as a new car? Body kit is P1, but I thought the P2 was in production from 1990 onwards.
One of the members here has a surviving silver p1 Valver with the VIN ending 4701...the one before this car! VINs were issued separately to build dates/times, so they didn't neccessarily go down the line together, but there's a possibility they did. That would make it almost certainly a February/March 1988 car, which means it's actually a GTi 16v, not a p1 16Valve. Rare machine!

As mentioned, the ORGA/RP number is the sure-fire way to get the exact build date, but they're easily rubbed off, sadly.
There are a few p1 in the register which were exported to the east, and almost all are much older vehicles than the registration dates suggest. One of them came back to the UK from Hong Kong, and has somehow ended up on a K-plate, despite it being an 88/89 built black p1. It's just administrative errors.

VINs with ***BEJ0000EJ**** or BEJ0001 are p1. P2 began as BEJ0002.
Last edited by Kitch on Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by white exec »

I've learned some things from that Kitch, so thanks.

Although BX sold pretty much like hotcakes in UK, some Citroen models didn't - notably XM, after the initial hoo-hah with some of the early ones. Our 2.5TD Exclusive was manufactured June 1996, but didn't get delivered to a dealer until 1 Dec 1998 . . . that's 2½ years with Citroen Slough, in storage! We bought it from the Surrey dealer, with just 1000 miles on the clock.

Wonder whether some of those painted-over RP numbers might still have the number under the new paint layer?
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by DLM »

white exec wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:52 pm
Wonder whether some of those painted-over RP numbers might still have the number under the new paint layer?
Had a brief mental image of the automotive equivalent of a "brass rubbing", but guess the the only way to find if overpainted rather then rubbed-down is destructive. Repeated T-cut?

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by white exec »

If the stencilled number is still there, it might show as slightly raised digits under the new paint? Bit hopeful, I know.
Otherwise cotton-bud tactics and a smidge of solvent.
Digits were usually in white on darkish colours, but black or yellow on the light ones. (Ours is yellow on white.)
Calls for some Fake-or-Fortune forensics... #-o
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Cresco750 »

Well, so the plot thickens! Very interesting information, thanks. I must confess however, that my knowledge of 16V’s, and for that matter: BX’s in general is rather sparse. So when I made the statement that it was a P1 I was merely basing that on my observation that it had the earlier style body kit?

Assuming that this vehicle is original it does not sport a ‘GTi’ badge on the boot, so I assume that would eliminate it from being an early example? If it had turned out to be a GTI then I would snap it up! It would strike me as being rather exceptional for it to be have a manufacture date of XXXX, and not be registered until three years later?


Kitch wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:17 am
Cresco750 wrote:
Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:21 pm
Is it possible to confirm a BX’s build date and spec from its VIN? Number is VF7XBEJ0001EJ4702. The vehicle in question is registered as a 1990 model, but was first registered in NZ in August 1991. Odometer is in miles (NZ vehicles normally in Km’s), which suggests it may have been privately imported from the UK as a new car? Body kit is P1, but I thought the P2 was in production from 1990 onwards.
One of the members here has a surviving silver p1 Valver with the VIN ending 4701...the one before this car! VINs were issued separately to build dates/times, so they didn't neccessarily go down the line together, but there's a possibility they did. That would make it almost certainly a February/March 1988 car, which means it's actually a GTi 16v, not a p1 16Valve. Rare machine!

As mentioned, the ORGA/RP number is the sure-fire way to get the exact build date, but they're easily rubbed off, sadly.
There are a few p1 in the register which were exported to the east, and almost all are much older vehicles than the registration dates suggest. One of them came back to the UK from Hong Kong, and has somehow ended up on a K-plate, despite it being an 88/89 built black p1. It's just administrative errors.

VINs with ***BEJ0000EJ**** or BEJ0001 are p1. P2 began as BEJ0002.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Kitch »

white exec wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:23 am
If the stencilled number is still there, it might show as slightly raised digits under the new paint? Bit hopeful, I know.
Otherwise cotton-bud tactics and a smidge of solvent.
Digits were usually in white on darkish colours, but black or yellow on the light ones. (Ours is yellow on white.)
Calls for some Fake-or-Fortune forensics... #-o
Solvent would take the ORGA clean off. Brake cleaner does, too. In fact, if you scrub too hard with a sponge and car shampoo, it starts to fade!
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Kitch »

Cresco750 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:44 am
Well, so the plot thickens! Very interesting information, thanks. I must confess however, that my knowledge of 16V’s, and for that matter: BX’s in general is rather sparse. So when I made the statement that it was a P1 I was merely basing that on my observation that it had the earlier style body kit?

Assuming that this vehicle is original it does not sport a ‘GTi’ badge on the boot, so I assume that would eliminate it from being an early example? If it had turned out to be a GTI then I would snap it up! It would strike me as being rather exceptional for it to be have a manufacture date of XXXX, and not be registered until three years later?
Sorry, I worded it badly.

A p1 16v and a GTi 16v are largely the same car. The badging changed, and sometimes the earliest cars have bronze rather than green tint windows. They're effectively the same car, but they were only marketed as a GTi 16v for less than 18 months, so as result are quite rare. They had their own badging which differed slightly from the subsequent 16v models.

Obviously there are more differences between the p1 and p2, but the badging remained the same. That makes the GTi 16v a rare machine.

Regards this car, I'm surprised it's not badged as a GTi 16v, but then I could be wrong. The UK silver car with the one-digit earlier VIN is (I'm guessing, due to the fact it's on an E-plate) a GTi 16v. I could be totally wrong there, however, but I've never seen an E-plate model that wasn't.
The badging on that bootlid does look OE, and its badging shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether a car is desirable or not. It's all about the shell, and the originality, for me.

If the service book comes with it, that should have the ORGA written in the first page. The ORGA of the silver car a digit earlier is 4126 (built on 25/02/88) This white car is likely to be within a few digits either way of that, IMO. Regardless, any BX 16v down under is a rare thing, and the p1 is the quickest (by small margins) of all the 'valvers'.

As for the registration date, 3 years is believable. My p2 was originally a 'KMO' car, and one of a batch or 5 or 6 p2 16vs that Citroen UK couldn't shift. They were all a year old when they were registered. I have some cars in the register that waited nearly two years, and if you ever see a white TZD reg no. N89 NJO, that was registered in 1996, but built 1200-odd days earlier, in 1992!
It tends to happen on the later cars, as demand for them dropped as they aged quite quickly. The earlier cars had much small delivery gaps - normally around a month.
If the car in question is an original export, I could quite easily believe that it took a couple of years to be registered. They were quite expensive back in the day, and not especially sought-after.

My C6 sat for two-years, unsold. Pretty much any C6 with the reg starting 'GJ59' did!
Last edited by Kitch on Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Cresco750 »

Thanks Kitch. After a little detective work I came across another 1991-registered P1 which had recently been advertised for sale. It was first registered as new here in NZ on 7/91 (so within a month of the one I’m looking at), has a VIN within three digits, but is speedometer is in Kph. So it would seem plausible that these two vehicles were imported together by a dealer rather than privately, but there is still something odd about one odo being in miles, while the other is in kph. Perhaps one or other has been swapped at some point in its life?

I’m still on the fence as to whether I should take the plunge or not? Rust is the biggest issue that I can see (potential minefield, but then again it may not be?), as well as the cost of a complete respray. I am all too familiar with buying a cheap doer-upper which ends up being more expensive than buying a tidy one to begin with!

I’m in no great hurry, but a 16v would make a nice stable mate for my CX, and it’s a car that’s been on my bucket list for about fifteen years!

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by xantia_v6 »

The NZ registration document (and even the rego label on the windscreen) should tell you if it was imported as a new or used vehicle. My guess is that it was privately imported (whether new or used at the time), as the NZ importers did not usually bring in cars with specifications that would complicate their dealer training and spare parts holding.

The MPH speedo would indicate that it was built for the UK market, so I would expect the badging to also be for the UK market. NZ market cars were generally built to the Australian specification (with the exception of emission controls which followed the less stringent UK rules).

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Kitch »

If the speedo is in MPH then it's quite likely either a personal import (which might explain the date gap) or a car originally built for UK-specification, but sent to NZ due to higher demand because as xantia_v6 says above, if the regs are less strict than the Oz-spec cars, which often had the slightly limper DFW cat-equipped engine, and air-con, then a UK car would have the MPH speedo. And, it'd be the D6C engine (full 160bhp).

Rust is the main thing with these. If it's solid underneath the washer bottles, above the front of the rear subframe mounts (and around the inner sill) and the inner arches in the boot etc, then an A-pillar needing repair isn't the end of the world (it's pretty common).
With a solid shell and low miles, you've got the ingredients to make a nice car, but if it's a total rot-box then it only makes sense if you can weld yourself. The shell is the pivotal factor, for me. It is for any BX.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Maxwell »

Kitch wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:43 pm
Cresco750 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:44 am
Well, so the plot thickens! Very interesting information, thanks. I must confess however, that my knowledge of 16V’s, and for that matter: BX’s in general is rather sparse. So when I made the statement that it was a P1 I was merely basing that on my observation that it had the earlier style body kit?

Assuming that this vehicle is original it does not sport a ‘GTi’ badge on the boot, so I assume that would eliminate it from being an early example? If it had turned out to be a GTI then I would snap it up! It would strike me as being rather exceptional for it to be have a manufacture date of XXXX, and not be registered until three years later?
Sorry, I worded it badly.

A p1 16v and a GTi 16v are largely the same car. The badging changed, and sometimes the earliest cars have bronze rather than green tint windows. They're effectively the same car, but they were only marketed as a GTi 16v for less than 18 months, so as result are quite rare. They had their own badging which differed slightly from the subsequent 16v models.

Obviously there are more differences between the p1 and p2, but the badging remained the same. That makes the GTi 16v a rare machine.

Regards this car, I'm surprised it's not badged as a GTi 16v, but then I could be wrong. The UK silver car with the one-digit earlier VIN is (I'm guessing, due to the fact it's on an E-plate) a GTi 16v. I could be totally wrong there, however, but I've never seen an E-plate model that wasn't.
The badging on that bootlid does look OE, and its badging shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether a car is desirable or not. It's all about the shell, and the originality, for me.

If the service book comes with it, that should have the ORGA written in the first page. The ORGA of the silver car a digit earlier is 4126 (built on 25/02/88) This white car is likely to be within a few digits either way of that, IMO. Regardless, any BX 16v down under is a rare thing, and the p1 is the quickest (by small margins) of all the 'valvers'.

As for the registration date, 3 years is believable. My p2 was originally a 'KMO' car, and one of a batch or 5 or 6 p2 16vs that Citroen UK couldn't shift. They were all a year old when they were registered. I have some cars in the register that waited nearly two years, and if you ever see a white TZD reg no. N89 NJO, that was registered in 1996, but built 1200-odd days earlier, in 1992!
It tends to happen on the later cars, as demand for them dropped as they aged quite quickly. The earlier cars had much small delivery gaps - normally around a month.
If the car in question is an original export, I could quite easily believe that it took a couple of years to be registered. They were quite expensive back in the day, and not especially sought-after.

My C6 sat for two-years, unsold. Pretty much any C6 with the reg starting 'GJ59' did!
The E-plate I just bought was registered 26/01/1988 and is badged as 16 Valve, no GTi.

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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by Kitch »

Maxwell wrote:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:22 pm
Kitch wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:43 pm
Cresco750 wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:44 am
Well, so the plot thickens! Very interesting information, thanks. I must confess however, that my knowledge of 16V’s, and for that matter: BX’s in general is rather sparse. So when I made the statement that it was a P1 I was merely basing that on my observation that it had the earlier style body kit?

Assuming that this vehicle is original it does not sport a ‘GTi’ badge on the boot, so I assume that would eliminate it from being an early example? If it had turned out to be a GTI then I would snap it up! It would strike me as being rather exceptional for it to be have a manufacture date of XXXX, and not be registered until three years later?
Sorry, I worded it badly.

A p1 16v and a GTi 16v are largely the same car. The badging changed, and sometimes the earliest cars have bronze rather than green tint windows. They're effectively the same car, but they were only marketed as a GTi 16v for less than 18 months, so as result are quite rare. They had their own badging which differed slightly from the subsequent 16v models.

Obviously there are more differences between the p1 and p2, but the badging remained the same. That makes the GTi 16v a rare machine.

Regards this car, I'm surprised it's not badged as a GTi 16v, but then I could be wrong. The UK silver car with the one-digit earlier VIN is (I'm guessing, due to the fact it's on an E-plate) a GTi 16v. I could be totally wrong there, however, but I've never seen an E-plate model that wasn't.
The badging on that bootlid does look OE, and its badging shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether a car is desirable or not. It's all about the shell, and the originality, for me.

If the service book comes with it, that should have the ORGA written in the first page. The ORGA of the silver car a digit earlier is 4126 (built on 25/02/88) This white car is likely to be within a few digits either way of that, IMO. Regardless, any BX 16v down under is a rare thing, and the p1 is the quickest (by small margins) of all the 'valvers'.

As for the registration date, 3 years is believable. My p2 was originally a 'KMO' car, and one of a batch or 5 or 6 p2 16vs that Citroen UK couldn't shift. They were all a year old when they were registered. I have some cars in the register that waited nearly two years, and if you ever see a white TZD reg no. N89 NJO, that was registered in 1996, but built 1200-odd days earlier, in 1992!
It tends to happen on the later cars, as demand for them dropped as they aged quite quickly. The earlier cars had much small delivery gaps - normally around a month.
If the car in question is an original export, I could quite easily believe that it took a couple of years to be registered. They were quite expensive back in the day, and not especially sought-after.

My C6 sat for two-years, unsold. Pretty much any C6 with the reg starting 'GJ59' did!
The E-plate I just bought was registered 26/01/1988 and is badged as 16 Valve, no GTi.
Is that the resprayed one on FB? If so, it's a GTi 16v (you can see by the badge on the dash). It's just had the wrong badge fitted on the tailgate, presumably when it was resprayed.
Having checked the VIN on that one against the register, it's probably one of the earliest 'valvers' out there. Earlier than the black one I just sold. I would guess it's an October '87 build, but without an RP/ORGA number, you can't say for sure.
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Re: Looking at buying a 16V

Post by bastiplutt »

The only radiators available for 16V now is Chinese. Everywhare else is out of stock and so it has been for several years.
Be aware! Baught a radiator from Dell Concept. It does not fit. Outlet misalignment 20 mm.
Inlet placed so no room for air intake hose. Winner Racing is the right one. Both made in PRC.
Winner Racing at eBay.