Strange noises and other problems of a new owner

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simonmall
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Strange noises and other problems of a new owner

Post by simonmall »

New member in trouble unashamedly looking for help and advice. OK honesty bit first – I bought a BX TZD Turbo in the same way I have bought a lot of cars before. If it ran well, stopped straight, was hatchback and diesel with 12 months MOT and under 400 quid I took it. Ran them all into the ground.

Then I get this thing and much against better judgement start liking it. Comfortable, quick, economical, pulls the trailer and goes through water easy when you jack it up (essential round here). Decided I would look after this one and keep it a good while.

Then it started going wrong...................

1) Before I can do just about anything I have to turn this pressure relief screw. Is it really the unmarked obscure 13mm hex nut which I can just reach stuffing my arm under the front bumper and turning it one flat at a time? I was expecting something obvious and accessible, but that is my interpretation from the Haynes book? Seems to have worked doing brake job

2) The fluid level in the reservoir seems to be high rather than too low, unless the indicator thingy is sticking. The level doesn’t seem to change when the car goes up and down, Is this thing sticking likely? How high should it appear to be when I look inside?

3) I had a seized caliper leading to a damaged disc (front). Replaced discs and pads and offending caliper (blessings be on Ebay) all OK, and bled the system according to the Haynes manual, using a long plastic tube from the bleed nipple to the reservoir. Seems to have worked when I did the one side I had worked on, but Haynes seems to imply I should have done both simultaneously. Is this necessary, can’t see why.

4) I can’t see any leak, but it looks sort of dirty oily under the bit where I think the pressure relief valve is. Normal?

5) When I start up the pressure warning and the STOP lamp shine for while then flicker then stop. Bad news?

6) Appalling clatter from offside end of engine started after 1000 miles. I can’t see anything obvious, it is charging, not losing water and seems to have some oil pressure. Bats along (now it has brakes) perfectly well. Suggestions as to what I should check?

Sorry to ask so much – not used to actually looking after a car.
And many thanks and apologies to Anders and the other moderators for getting me on the site after some problems, probably all my fault.
Simon

recently acquired TZD Turbo

jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

Pressure relief screw - simply depressurises the accumulator - ensuring you don't get 'shot' by a jet of high pressure LHM. Wise to depressurise before breaking any hydraulic circuit and could save your life. Start the engine and let it run with the screw open if the reservoir-pump hose has been removed as this assists priming - otherwise tighten when the work is finished.

LHM level should be checked with the car fully raised. Excess LHM will leak out of the top and tank and make a mess - that's all. The indicators are often thought to have stuck. If in doubt raise the car fully and make sure that there is plenty of LHM in there (touch it with a finger)

The front and rear brake circuits are independant. The front is fed from the accumulator via the safety valve (which operates the pressure switch) and the rear are fed by the rear suspension - thus providing load compensation. The risc of replacing one caliper is that air might get into the pipe leading to the other front caliper but it depends how you did the job as to the risk. If you clamped the flexy to the caliper - there's no risk.

The presure relief valve is mounted on the regulator. Have a good look around and make sure all the various pipes enter it straight and that the hex headed sleeves are tight. They MUST NOT BE DEAD TIGHT. The correct torque is about 9 or 12 lb ft depending on size - which is a moderate pull on a short open ended spanner fitted to them. (I've had a leak when one wasn't straight and the nut not fully home as it was binding)

Check the accumulator - they go flat eventually but new ones are less than £20. As well as providing a reserve of pressurised LHM which is needed for the proper function of the system, they damp the pulses from the pump which can cause leaks.

To test the accumulator sphere, get the car to normal height and let it run and settle for a couple of minutes. Turn off the engine and sit in the boot. The car should drop a long way and after 30 seconds or so rise to its original height powered by the accumulator.

The warning light and the stop light will come on simultaneously - they're wired that way. Both will come on when you start and will go out when there is sufficient pressure and sufficient LHM in the tank. Low LHM is usually noticed as they come on on cornering as the stuff sloshes round in the tank. It takes time to build up sufficient pressure - less strangely with flat spheres. What happens is that when the car is stopped the pressure leaks away slowly through the height correctors and brake valve, and while doing so the spheres expell the LHM in them. When you start up it all has to be pumped back, the spheres filled and the gas in them compressed etc and this takes a while. This is perfectly normal and means the car bleeds away and gas leaking from the spheres.

Clatter from the offside of the engine - could be serious. First check its not the alternator belt slipping - it should be a 5 row belt but 4's are sometimes used which do tend to be noisy. Quick check for elimnation purposes is to remove it or spray it with silicon - if it goes quiet - its the belt.

The serious problems could be if the timing belt tensioners are collapsing - if so eventually the belt will come off and your engine wll be wrecked. Replacement is possible - loads of posts on this subject on here and there is no need to remove the crank pulley to change the belt on a TZD Turbo.

Its worth checking that the crank pulley itself is tight. (very)

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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev »

Just one precision : the pressure relief bolt is a 12mm bolt, not 13mm, the only one in the area of the pressure regulator, and quite easy to get at, even from the top.

simonmall
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Post by simonmall »

Thanks very much - helped a lot , but -

1) I did the sit on the back test and it came back up fine. Is it OK that it sits down completely after a few hours with the engine off, or should the suspension hold the car up for longer?

2) I got the RHS timing belt cover off (is the rest of the job as hard as getting this thing back on again?) and the belt looks OK but seems to have quite a lot of slack in it, so it looks like I will be doing my first ever timing belt change. I have read all the posts and think it might go OK, but I am a little worried that I haven't got the right manual. I could only buy a petrol BX book and a ZX diesel Haynes. Is this liable to lead me into grief?

Off to get 16mm deep socket, some M8 bolts, a junior hacksaw and a 3/8 socket adaptor. Oh and a replacement belt

Thanks again
Simon
Simon

recently acquired TZD Turbo

jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

Haynes Citroen Diesel manual:

http://sitruuna.unk.fi/pub/korjausoppaa ... %20Haynes/

Its normal for BX suspension to drop when the car is left. Generally the back goes down before the front - sometimes the front seems to stay up - especially if the struts are worn and stiff. The LHM leaks out of the suspension via the height correctors and the doseur (brake valve)

Later Xantias don't drop- having an additional valve and sphere.

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

1) Completely normal. They all do that Sir ! No worries.

2) There is a timing hole for the crank axle under the starter motor in the flange towards the flywheel. This is the best ref index you can get for the crank timing. The diesel pump and cam axle should have obvious timing holes.

All timing dowels should be 8mm. Standard timing dowel sets should include these dowels for Peugeot & Citroen.
The one under the starter is best made DIY using a lenght of 8mm threaded bar. A hook reaching 80mm into the flange with a 250mm handle bend into shape to clear the starter motor.

Using these dowels its not necessary to remove the crank pulley for cambelt replacement.
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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mat_fenwick
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Post by mat_fenwick »

I used an 8mm drill bit for the flywheel, may save you making something up. Good luck!

jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

If you want to be precise - the chances are that dead on 8 mm will not go in the hole.

I bought a Draper kit as my friendly accessory shop had it at a good price. I couldn't get the cranked bar in but eventually did get a hacksaw in as well as a 7.5mm drill. I measured the Draper bar - and it's 8.06mm!

Since the belt can only be fitted in 'whole teeth' steps providing the 'pull' side is kept tight you won't have any problem.

simonmall
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thanks - and just one more dumb question

Post by simonmall »

If I can't do it with this much help and support I will sell off my socket set in shame. thanks very much.

Just one more dumb question : In trying to buy a new belt and tensioner kit, I am being offered lots of kits for the XUD engine. Some say they fit the 1.9, others say they fit all the BX diesels. No-one lists the 1.8 turbo engine specifically, which is what I have.

Does the same kit fit all the diesels? One of the Ebay shops said that their kit, advertised as for post 1994 XUD s would fit as well, when I mailed them to see if they had something suitable in stock. Is this right?
thanks again

Simon
Simon

recently acquired TZD Turbo

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Yes its the same parts for the BX range of 1.769 (1.7 or 1.8 ) w/ & w/o turbo and 1.9 XUD's. Later 1.9 XUD types as found in ZX & Xantia uses different parts, as these are a further development of the XUD.
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev »

So, Anders, are you no longer advocating your famous "tippex marks on the timing belt" method ?

I've used it several times with no problems at all.

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

cauchoiskev wrote:So, Anders, are you no longer advocating your famous "tippex marks on the timing belt" method ?

I've used it several times with no problems at all.
I've been spanked so much by "proff's", that I dont bother to mention it anymore :wink:
But its quite amusing to read here and there on the web that "I've read somewhere on a forum about a safe method using the old belt as a reference for placing the new belt".
I'm always using this method myself, unless of course the timing beforehand is a suspect problem issue. 8)
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

simonmall
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you can't leave it there

Post by simonmall »

This isn't fair. I am the new boy round here and I am definitely a tippex man if it works the way I think it does. So tell please.

I have started the job and done a bit of prep. The worst clatter went away when I took the alternator belt right off, and there seems to be a lot of end play in the alternator bearings, so I will get a replacement. Now I can see the belt better I can see some loose fibres sticking out at the edges, so I intend to do the belt anyway

But almost immediately I am stuffed (apart from no deep 16mm socket available within 10 miles). How on earth do I see or reach this hole into the flywheel? I have peered, poked, shone torches and it looks like I have to pull miles of pipes and other stuff out of the way to get anywhere near. Or am I being very dumb (again). Do I go down from the top or up from the bottom? I note Haynes (thanks for the link) show a wonderfully clear picture - on a stripped out block!

So please, details of the tippex solution if it gets me round finding the mystery hole. Does involve marking positions and counting belt teeth, which was what I was going to try?

Thanks again

Simon
Simon

recently acquired TZD Turbo

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Ok Simon -

Its defo no secret - and defo a very simple procedure.

Tippex mark the belt on 2 adjacent teeth, then tippex the tooth in between on the coggwheel.
Do that on all 3 axles, while the belt is still tensioned correctly. Mark the overside of the belt to easily locate the tippex marked teeth on the side.
Now remove the belt and copy/transfer the tippex marks to the new belt.
As a test lay the 2 belts inside one another and check the maks are located exactly the same places. Count the teeth between marks on both belts to be sure they match.
Fit the new belt to tippex marks.

Guess you had something similar in mind as it is a really logic way to do it :wink:

Note : All belts have an arrow marking on top. This arrow is ONLY valid for running direction of the belt, if you use the timing marks provided on the belt, against the index setting on engine.
The belt is constructed to, and will happily, run in either direction for its entire service life.
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak

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cauchoiskev
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Post by cauchoiskev »

Here is Anders' original text from the citroenz forum :

This method will save you the hassle bringing all axles to absolute engine reference indexes - especially the bothersome indexing of diesel roto-pumps. The method is known as Relative Indexing - as opposed to the standard Absolute Indexing using all axles set to absolute engine indexes. The only technical difference is the method - result is huge labour saving.

Note :
If you by bad or "tired" engine running suspect a cambelt offset with the old belt - then you have to insert the indexing bolts/pins & find the diesel roto pump index - to check the Absolute Indexing.
If these can then not be inserted without unduly violence to the cambelt or index bolts - you then know the belt has an erroneous offset.

Relative Indexing :
1) Clean the edge of the old belt & the sprockets using a solvent/degreaser.
2) Using white ink - mark up 1 tooth on each sprocket - and the 2 surrounding teeth on the belt. On the outside (flat) of the belt - make a line corresponding to each marked tooth - ensuring you can find the marked teeth.
3) On the cam sprocket belt markings - mark up an arrow pointing towards front of car. This arrow indicates direction of belt rotation - and ensures you find this arrow as cam index. In case of 2 cams - allways use the leftmost (viewed in to the sprockets) as reference.
4) Remove old belt - transfer all the markings to new belt. Have an assistent checking equal teeth count between markings on both belts - ensuring no offset made by error.
5) Fit new belt according to markings.
6) If the belt tensioner wheel is fitted with a tensioner spring - this is used for correct tensioning of the belt.
7) Loosen any lock nuts/bolts on the tensioner wheel bracket - and let the spring tension the belt.
8) IMPORTANT. Refit any drivebelt wheel onto the crank axle - to keep the cambelt on the crank sprocket.
9) Turn the engine in running direction a couple of full rev's - by handtool - ensuring the belt seats correctly on wheels & sprockets.
10) Now turn the cam backwards a bit - to take up any slack in the belt's longest run.
11) In case the engine has 2 cams - then turn both cam sprockets backwards - to take up any slack between cams - and slack in the belt's longest run.
12) In case the tensioner wheel has no tensioner spring (center offset adjusting) - then tension the belt such that it's exactly possible to twist the belt 90degree on it's longest run - using normal finger forces.
13) Tighten the tensioner wheel bracket lock nuts/bolts.

But my engine has 2 cambelts ?
Sometimes seen on diesels - with no 2 belt driving the roto pump.
Simply repeat the above procedure for this belt.