Starter Motors

[kiwi]

Listed are 3 types of starter motor for the BX16/19 would replacing a Bosch with either the Ducellier or Paris Rome make any differance?

I got a spare sitting in the 16 thats going to have to go in the 19 which is showing signs of imminant infact nearly there failure. According to haynes there are 3 makes but they all fit 16/19.

The symptom is a reluctance of more than a click when starting the car takes several attempts befoe starting. Headlights do not dim but the interior light does. Tried this several times.

Or am I on the wrong track of diagnosing Starter Motor Fault?

[jeremy]

I'd have said Haynes was right - the loads imposed in starting 16's and 19's wouldn't be that different and the mounting would probably be the same.

Common starter faults are solenoid failure - it has 2 functions - to put the drive gear in mesh and to turn on the current - a massive relay if you like. The contacts can get dirty and pitted even if the thing puts the gear in mesh.

The bearings can fail, the drive gear can strip and the one way clutch can fail. Both the last 2 will produce spinning and no drive. The hear will also make strange noises first. These are not common.

The other common failure is sticky or worn brushes. There are 4 brushes on starters - so if one sticks its possible that you get a weak drive. If the brushes are sticking a smart (not heavy) tap with a hammer or something may free them temporarily.

Its worth checking the connections carefully - and the engine earth for that matter. There may be an external heavy connection between the solenoid and the motor which is worth checking if its easy to get at.

If the thing clicks but does not operate and the lights do not dim it suggests it is not drawing a heavy current - which suggests solenoid contact failure - or perhaps a sticky engaging mechanism which does not allow the contacts to meet.

I had a failure on the ZX - which was the ignition switch. There was no click from the motor though.

[AlanS]

I found problems on a couple of BX starters began with the power supply to the solenoid not being up to scratch with the result the solenoid was "pulling in" rather than "snapping in". Tests on one car showed power supply as low as 9 volts. An easy test for this is to separate the supply wire at the spade terminal and you'll find the male part will reach the + terminal on the battery. With car in neutral and handbrake on, hit the battery terminal with it and if the starter just snaps in and spins, chances are that's the present extent of the problem.
A common solution for this is to fit a relay in there and even in some cases (as I've done to mine) fit a push button under the steering cowl to activate the starter thereby removing load from the ignition switch.
If you persevere with the dodgy starting, it then causes the contacts in the solenoid to pit due to arcing during operation.
The carbon brush problem is caused due to the strength of the springs used to maintain pressure on the brushes against the commutator which tends to cause them to wear on an angle. As they wear down, they can then jam slightly in their holders and if the starter stops in a certain position, will click like a faulty solenoid.
Brushes can be bought from Valeo and these come as a kit with slightly softer springs. I understand getting these in the UK is a bit of a problem due to Auto Electricians trying to operate a "closed shop" mentality, but no problem here and I can supply the part number if you need it. They aren't all that expensive.


Alan S

[kiwi]

My question is not about if its a starter motor problem or not but does the Starter motor make have to be the same that replaces it.

Eg
Bosch
Ducclier
Paris Rome

I have a spare sitting in a BX so just wanted to make sure that if it was not the same make it would work.

[AlanS]

Can't see why it should be, as they should all interchange as they did on the CX but if the problem is in the wiring causing voltage drop, all that will happen is if you replace the starter with another, if the cause isn't fixed, you're soon back at square one.

Alan S

[kiwi]

Given that just recieved the next years council rates which has gone up the equalivilant of a Years Kiwi Road Tax and first of 3 installments is next month, the quaterly car insurance bill for the BX and Registration on the other car (car Tax) plus It just dawned on me that both cars are due for the 6 Bi-annual WOF (aka MOT). Kind of not got a lot of spare cash floating around

But I have got a Red 16RS spare parts car sitting on my driveway in startable condition with a good starter motor onboard. Once I take out its Heart I will then have to finish its dismantling, just wanted to be sure its heart can be transfered.

[artic-steel]

I had exactly the same starting problem on my 16 TGS, changing the starter made no difference,

It was the the two wires that feed from the fusebox into the positive battery lead, were it connects into the battery lead ,just follow thinest wire off the positive terminal down a few inches it will split into two, check these connections carefully, one of mine just pulled out with no resistance.

Changing the lead was a 10 minute job (luckily i had a spare).


Excuse the lack of techinal terms, i have no idea what the lead is called if you need to order a new one

[AndersDK]

I had exactly the same starting problem on my 16 TGS, changing the starter made no difference,

It was the the two wires that feed from the fusebox into the positive battery lead, were it connects into the battery lead ,just follow thinest wire off the positive terminal down a few inches it will split into two, check these connections carefully, one of mine just pulled out with no resistance.

Changing the lead was a 10 minute job (luckily i had a spare).


Excuse the lack of techinal terms, i have no idea what the lead is called if you need to order a new one

Great tip -

Its quite often exactly here you have corroded cables - under the crimped spade connectors (size : un-usual large). I recommand you try crimp on a set of fresh terminals on a fresh end of the cables. I believe the yellow ones will fit the cable gauge.

[kiwi]

Still does not answer if there is a differance in the Bosch, Duccllier or Paris Rome starter motor types.

Without that information I am pretty much stuck as to attempting to replace the starter motor. Last thing I want to do is talk to the Auto Electrcian finacially broke is the word unless I really have to.

[AlanS]

Still does not answer if there is a differance in the Bosch, Duccllier or Paris Rome starter motor types.

Without that information I am pretty much stuck as to attempting to replace the starter motor. Last thing I want to do is talk to the Auto Electrcian finacially broke is the word unless I really have to.

As I said before:

Can't see why it should be, as they should all interchange as they did on the CX

I'd say if anyone had ever noticed a difference, they'd have said something by now.
Do you intend swapping them across yourself or are you getting an auto electrician to do it?
If it's a DIY job, what's the drama? They all used standard blocks and to my knowledge the only differences between petrol engines physically is different heads and different internals, to my knowledge the rest is all fairly identical..
On the CXs, I've used 2200, 2400 and 2.5 Gti starters on each other and can't say I've ever noticed a difference.
One way I suppose is to either look up GSF or similar online shops and see if they note differences in models for starters or similarly, check on what Valeo have to offer in a starter motor. If they simply say "Starter motor BX, suit all models" or similar, I think that would answer your question.


Alan S

[AndersDK]

Still does not answer if there is a differance in the Bosch, Duccllier or Paris Rome starter motor types.

Without that information I am pretty much stuck as to attempting to replace the starter motor. Last thing I want to do is talk to the Auto Electrcian finacially broke is the word unless I really have to.

Yes there are differences. That sort of differences that makes them unique in parts & bits, like bushings, brushes, coil & engaging gear clutch. These bits are NOT interchangeable. They perform the same however.

Its been said many times here that 8valve XU starters are directly interchangeable over the engines.

If you are short on spares, you can still try any starter from another vehicle make, as the bits are the same on the same make of starter, but the mounting flange (housing) and gear will differ according to engine they are made for.

[Mike E (uk)]

I have swapped starter motors on my 8V GTi which were completely different looking and different sizes, but both fitted perfectly.

Well worth fitting a relay for the starter switch, It helps starting and I expect the solonoid will last longer when it gets a full 12V and does not arc and spark so much when engine is strarted.

Mike

[Vanny]

i've got a Xantia TD starter motor on my bx 16v engine, there ain't a huge amount of difference between any starters (except for the 1.4 starters which are back to front!!). If it fits into the hole then it will work just fine, the different makes are simply copy parts so should work exactly the same (unlike traction V's H van starters which apparently spin in opposite directions while looking identical )