Words of wisdom required.

BX Tech talk
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AlanS
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Words of wisdom required.

Post by AlanS »

As many know. I have been playing around with a BX Tri-122 estate for a while now.
Anyhow, here's the story.
The auto box eventually carked it in a big way and I've been lucky enough to pick up a supposedly known "good" auto box that they reckon was rebuilt 5,000 klms ago so have let logic be the better part of valour and intend swapping the entire shooting match across; this is complete tranny and torque converter.
Now, the box is out of a Peugeot but is a ZF 4HP14 box as in the BX so I presume everything will be compatible, however, which is the best option?

1 - Rip entire engine/transmission out, fit up on bench then reinstal.

2 - Transplant whilst everything's in the car.

Like to hear from anyone who may have done both and if done in situ. how big a basted of a job is it and are there any tricks to make it less painful?


Alan S
By the time you're old enough to know it all, you can't remember why you were learning.
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

G'Day Alan.

Funny you should ask about r&r an auto into a BX estate!
Did one about a year ago and have to do it again in the next few weeks cause of the stupud transmission servicers that broke the flywheel and drive plate.


I wouldn't take out the engine. It may seem like only a little more work but it's heaps more!


I don't think that there are any real tricks that you don't already know about to remove the trans and reinstall.

It's not the hardest job to do..

I'll have a look this weekend in the Citroen service manual if it says anything to take not e of and let you know.

From memory Citroen estimates it to take an hour to remove and refit another transmission!! As if!!!



Michael
My Cars:
'93 BX 19GTi Sedan 5M
'89 BX 19TRI Estate 5M
'89 AX GT(With EFI) 2door 5M
In the Family:
'74 SM IE (Fully Restored) 5M
'90 BX 19TRI122 Sedan 4A
'02 Xantia Exclusive Sedan 4AA
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Hi AlanS -

Might seem notoriously extraounus work to rip the entire powerpack and replace it. But in view of the datecode of our spines - I'd do exactly that :lol:

Yes there is a lot more ancillary to be removed and dismantled, but there will be no uncertainty and no skinned knuckles, when the "new" drivepack can be assembled and inspected all over on the bench.

I've not yet done it. But my next engine swapping will surely include a startup & test run of the engine - before its going in - just to be sure.
Dont care too much on manifold and mufflers - as we both live in nice remote areas. Just put on your outdoor stereo headset :wink:
C U / Anders - '90red16riBreak - '91GrisDolment16meteor - Project'88red19trsBreak
dead cars : '89white 16RS - '89antrasitTRDturboEst - '90white19triBreak
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cavmad
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Post by cavmad »

I'd be tempted to follow Michael's suggestion Alan as he's actually done the job, and in my experience experience is better than quoting manuals or guess work.
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

Thanks cavmad.

Alan, I had a look and the book doesn't note aything specific.
From what I remember of doing it, we put the car on stands, drained the cooling circuit via its drain plug on the bottom of the radiator and the back of the block, drained the transmission via the drain plug on the base of the transmission and disconnected the relevant items. The gear selector linkage, which is just a ball joint kind of thing like the manual levers have on the end was then disconnected along with the reversing switch and start inhibitor cable. Then the oil cooler came off (this needs to be flushed thoroughly through the coolant ports to ensure efficient operation). You may need to remove most of the air intake hoses as they get in the way.
You'll also need to depressurise the system (hence on the stands) and remove accumulator, pressure regulator and flow divider. The flywheel cover plate can then come off too. Remove the drive shafts by way of pulling the wheels off, removing the locking pin and cover and removing the bit nut in the centre of the brake disc (we have a special tool to do it because it's a pain to hold the disc and turn as we regularly stand on the extension bar to undo the nut!). Undo the (17mm i think???) bolt on the bottom of the brake hub (ball joint). Use a ball join puller to pop the bottom off and then by hand lift the brake hub out of the suspension arm. Them go underneath and remove the two little ocking screws which are in the bottom engine mound housing. This only effects the rught shaft. Proceed to pull the shafts out.
Whilst holding up the trnasmission by way of an engine crane and rope, remove car battery and undo transmission mount. Lower the whole thing down a bit and remove the mount bolt from the transmission casing. You will need a long socket similar to a spark plug socket to remove.
Then get a piece of wood, engine stand or jack to gently hold up the sump of the engine. Proceed to remove the bolts right around holding it together.

Through the port for the flywheel you will need to undo three bolts which hold the converter to the driveplate. You will need to undo and then by hand turn the engine and remove the next, etc.
Then gently pull it sideways away from the engine. Make sure the torque conver stays in place as it will be full of oil too.
Voilla.

To put in I used an engine crane to lift the transmission with a rope up underneath the car. Positioned the rope so it balanced it and then lifted it up in place. Might need a second person to operate the crane or there could be quite a lot of going backwards and forwards.
Cant remember how I bolted on the torque converter though. Maybe the way I got it out. Then there would need to be one torque converter bolt positioned in the right place first.

Install drive shafts (with new diff seals! They are cheap and make sure that it doesn't leak).

Reconnect everything and bleed the cooling system.

Proceed to fill the transmission with Valvoline ATF type D. I don't know how empty the transmission was when you got it. Hopefully you can fill it the same as just a change and you are familiar with that.

Take it for a drive and see!!
My Cars:
'93 BX 19GTi Sedan 5M
'89 BX 19TRI Estate 5M
'89 AX GT(With EFI) 2door 5M
In the Family:
'74 SM IE (Fully Restored) 5M
'90 BX 19TRI122 Sedan 4A
'02 Xantia Exclusive Sedan 4AA
'06 C5 2.2HDi Estate 6A
AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

Thanks for all that, but the main problem I can see is how the **** am I going to lift this transmission around? Reality kicked in when I went to lift the new box out of the car and at present I'm fairly short on manpower assistance.

With my injuries playing up a bit at present also, I doubt that I can physically get it into position. Gone are the days when I used to slide under a big 6 or 8 pot, drag the box under, roll it onto my stomach and hurl it up into position and be back on the track in a couple of hours.

I've started on a full rip out, but weather and a few other distractions have got me progressing slowly and at present things are at a standstill until the crane returns from the sons place as he's preparing his GT-R for a sprint meet this weekend. Looks like discretion's going to have to be the better part of valour on this one. At least I get a chance this way to tidy up the hydraulics and electricals as I go.
IIRC, the wiring I need to disconnect is only minimal in that once I disconnect the main black plug and earth, the two plugs on the O/S inner guard should just about be all I need.
As I say, thanks again for your efforts and cheers,


Alan S
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docchevron
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Post by docchevron »

There's no way I'd pull the entire lot out to change the transmission, and I've done a few now. Oddly enough, all on the same car!

The box is Fing heavy, but if you lift it out and in with an engine crane it's very straight forward.
Smokes lots, because enough's enough already!

Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

Well Doc, my way of looking at it is this.

I have severe back injuries, so bad at times I literally can't walk (I'm classified as a progressing paraplegic 85% totally disabled) and as such it's a drama for me to work under cars unless I'm there for some time, but getting in and out from under cars can be a major drama. I sometimes have a couple of big strong lads around, but not so much lately, so it means that I have to do most of this myself.
If I lift the entire thing out and onto a bench style of situation, using a crane, I have to do a reasonable amount of bending but nowhere near as much as if I have to crawl under and work a lot from below. This way, I can pull most of the gear off and hitch the chains and leveller on it. They can help as it comes out and help set it where I want to work on it. They can help slide the old one off and new one on and I can then lift it back in (with a little help) and start to reconnect all the gear.
Timewise, based on Michaels description, I can't see any advantage, in fact possibly just the opposite if things start to go wrong. The other thing is that this box didn't come out of a BX so if there's any minor differences (as only the French could do) I have it out where I can see them and compare or swap across any bits that may require it.
The bonus is, that I'm a fussy basted when I work on cars and whilst I have the guts out, will probably do the once over the hydraulics, steering rack boots etc so once it's back, there it stays and I know it's all secure.


Alan S
By the time you're old enough to know it all, you can't remember why you were learning.
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m_2975
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Post by m_2975 »

It really doesn't matter which way you do it.

It's all about which way works best for you. You asked which way I thought would be best and cavmad and doc have agreed.

If you have back problems then it makes it a totally different story.
My Cars:
'93 BX 19GTi Sedan 5M
'89 BX 19TRI Estate 5M
'89 AX GT(With EFI) 2door 5M
In the Family:
'74 SM IE (Fully Restored) 5M
'90 BX 19TRI122 Sedan 4A
'02 Xantia Exclusive Sedan 4AA
'06 C5 2.2HDi Estate 6A
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docchevron
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Post by docchevron »

AlanS wrote:I have severe back injuries, so bad at times I literally can't walk (I'm classified as a progressing paraplegic 85% totally disabled) and as such it's a drama for me to work under cars unless I'm there for some time, but getting in and out from under cars can be a major drama. I sometimes have a couple of big strong lads around, but not so much lately, so it means that I have to do most of this myself.
Ah, hhmm, ok that puts a very different tilt on things. What you really need to do is move to Stroud UK!
AlanS wrote:The other thing is that this box didn't come out of a BX so if there's any minor differences (as only the French could do) I have it out where I can see them and compare or swap across any bits that may require it.
What car did the box come from Alan??

If a Xantia the extra gearbox mount will need removing, and the quadrant will have to be swopped. As will the kickdown cable most likely..
Smokes lots, because enough's enough already!

Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
AlanS
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Post by AlanS »

This was why I was asking about what needed to happen. I'm not yet to the stage of "Timmaahh" from SouthPark but every job has to be calculated so I don't suddenly end up that way.
Most times it's fairly hard to pick there's much wrong, but if I do a job in such a way so as to bend me the wrong way, all hell can break loose. I don't use painkillers so if things start to go wrong I get a bit of forewarning.

The box came out of a Pug 205



Alan S
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docchevron
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Post by docchevron »

Fair play Alan, I live on pain killers. Couldn't get through a day without them.
Although the flip side of that is when you're doped up on pain killers you can end up doing more damage since you cant feel the early warning pangs...

Should be fine with the pug box.
Depending what year it is you may have to remove the selector cable support bracket and swop the quadrant arm. Other than that, should go straight in.
Smokes lots, because enough's enough already!

Far too many BX's, a bus, an ambulance a few trucks, not enough time and never enough cash...
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