Newbie needing advice on water loss

[Thickasmud]

1991 TGD 1.9 BX19 Auto
Engine No. EJXGS / 0120704V

141000 miles
New timing belts at 47k, 84k &127k (1997,2001 & 2004)
No record of new water pump but coolant changed yearly by previous owners and no rust in coolant or radiator.

Three weeks in and all was rosey, she charmed all before her despite the kids warnings of social exclusion. An amazingly real 55-60 mpg in the SE and that smooth ride closed all arguments with the disbelievers, I 'm sure its all been said before, but this is the only car since our mini days that people actually smile at as we float by (VVV rare in London).
But right now she's up on axle stands.javascript:emoticon(':oops:')

Started up this morning, but coolant level light stayed on until moved off inclined drive to level road. No sign of any leaks so assumed just the sensor because of the slope. Short trip of 20 miles and leaking water from rear of the engine but no warning light. Left to cool and put on stands, started up and no leaks until after @10 minutes idling. Water is leaking from the water pump area. Once the engine stops the leak ceases.


Before I tread the path of no retrns with Eurocarparts, G&S etc.. for new water pump and timing belt etc.. is there anything I need to check or investigate before.

I am now of course forced to explain why my carefully selected new car is, after three weeks, off the road and watering the garden.

Would somebody please tell me what I should expect to pay for fitting and how long should it take a competent garage, versed in these cars. Thanks

[M]

1900 N/A doesnt have that nasty braided hose at the back of the block does it? (unlike the TD's).

Quite posibly the water pump if its coming from that area, though why it would only leak out after the engine is hot rather than cold / all the time someone else with more knowledge than me can answer. There is no indications that the CHG is leaking is there?

[Thickasmud]

Cheers for the quick reply Marty. I'm a complete novice on this car so excuse my ignorance.

I cannot see any braided hoses from the rear of the block (above or below) or anywhere at the back of the engine bay. Up until this point the coolant level had not changed, the mpg was superb, there is no smoke on start up or moving away and definitely no white smoke at any point. Oil pressure seems normal and no change in performance. The thermostat opens as the rad heats up as expected. I assume you refer to the cylinder head gasket by CHG?

[toddao]

Hello Thickasmud and welcome to the club,
you say that you have it on axle stands - have you looked from underneath to locate any area of leaks? It could be one of the hoses that leads to the pump from the rad or onto the heating unit, rather than the actual pump. It is common procedure to change the water pump with the cam-belt and it doesn't seem that old.. but you never know.

Is there a Citroen specialist near you? You mention SE - there is a good one in Battersea called MWR I think ( mentioned on the links somewhere here) Tel: 0207 924 2477 - ran by a bloke called Mark , under the arches towards Clapham Junction. Someone who knows the BX can do the belt and pump in say three hours.
Good luck, hope you get it sorted and tell the neighbours that you bought it to use purely as a sculpture!

[ken newbold]

Yeah, you need to check all possibilities for leaks in that area, maybe help to remove the timing belt covers.

The job itself is very straight forward, 2 hours, maybe 3 but if they tell you more, walk away.

Is Medway Citroen anywhere near you? I'm sure they'll take care of you.

[Thickasmud]

Thanks Toddeo and Ken. Today I've rec'd quotes range-ing from £150 labour only to £380+ incl parts. Ken could you please let me have the number for Medway Citroen as I'm pretty well in NW Kent and it seems London and its suburbs are making this too costly.
If there was a leak from one of the hoses would'nt the loss start as soon as the engine was started? I'm slightly puzzled why the water only starts leaking after 10 minutes or so and the engine has started to warm up. Its difficult to see from the underside but the water is definitely seeping from the upper face of the pump, unfortunately I cannot even see the pump from above

[ken newbold]

http://www.medwaycitroen.com/

all the info here /\

Does the system pressurize at all?

Could possibly be a core plug but I've never known it.

[MULLEY]

Blimey, those prices are a bit thick , i've arranged for a local mechanic to do the cambelt, waterpump & tensioner on my Gti, he reckoned on 3hrs, should cost about £90....(I've already got the parts so only paying for the labour)....

Get yourself up North & save a bundle, even factoring in the fuel, its still works out cheaper....

[DLM]

Thickasmud - If I were in your shoes I'd want to be absolutely positive that it is the water pump which is leaking.

Have you tried giving a good squeeze to the coolant pipes around the belt-side/back of the engine to check for any wheezing/bubbling noises, indicating porous/perished pipes, or pipes sliced into by a jubilee clip edge that only leak once the pipe balloons a bit under increased pressure? Also, have you traced back to ensure that the observed leak isn't a 'dribbler' from higher up?

The engine end of the bottom hose is a good place to start squeezing, followed by the other pipes which converge at the collector box. I had to repair/replace a sequence of perished coolant pipes around the back of a TD engine last year, and heater pipes in particular would only leak after a few minutes once a small airlock had moved up the pipe. Some leaks came from a lot higher-up than the drip locations what I observed on an initial investigation.

i've arranged for a local mechanic to do the cambelt, waterpump & tensioner on my Gti, he reckoned on 3hrs, should cost about £90....

Mulley - that's commendably cheap if he's regularly doing that sort of work, is a general all-round conscientious good-guy mechanic with satisfied customers, or is a pro doing a bit of work on the side. It's not rocket science, just a job you need someone reliable to do.

If he's a good 'un, its a bargain and you're a fortunate man. If not, then I suspect you'll get what you pay for: everybody doing the job seriously to earn a living has a basic set of overheads to cover, even if they have cheap living expenses or don't pay 'market' rent for premises.

I'm not a natural cynic - just cautious, and I have lived outside the South-East....

[MULLEY]

Known the chap for a few years now, so have reasonable confidence, afterall its a standard type job that isnt citroen specific.

I wouldnt take the car to him if it was to do with anything hydraulic related, plus its kinda off the books cash only no receipt, so that makes it a few quid cheaper....

[Thickasmud]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, if I had not had such a response I would'nt have persevered.

Ken the system does pressurize; DLM having now removed the cambelt covers and inner wing guard I can see the leak is from the innermost pipe entering the water pump where the 2 small pipes run in parallel and enter into the rearmost part of the pump. This pipe returns upwards & along the wing but then moves forward and seems to disappear into the wing/chassis frame just below the fuel filter I cannot see where it goes. Is it correct that one of the pipe inlets to the water pump should have been capped, the car does not have AC. Can anybody tell me what this pipe is and where it goes (leaking one)? Thanks.

[kermit the frog]

Just one other thing you could try.
Once you have checked all the hoses as told above and have ruled them out

when the engine is hot and the leak appears try undoing the radiator cap slowly to release the pressure DO NOT REMOVE IT

Does the leak stop if so you can probably say it is the water pump seal that has gone New water pumpneeded

If the above works then you should be ok to drive it with the rad cap on loosely to the garage but make sure you top up the level only when cold.
Keep an eye on the level warning light when driving take a bottle of warm water with you on the trip to the garage just in case.

Hope this helps (Good luck)

Regards Kermit

[DLM]

I can see the leak is from the innermost pipe entering the water pump where the 2 small pipes run in parallel and enter into the rearmost part of the pump. This pipe returns upwards & along the wing but then moves forward and seems to disappear into the wing/chassis frame just below the fuel filter I cannot see where it goes.

That doesn't sound like a configuration I'm familiar with: a picture or two would speak a thousand words, if possible.

Is it correct that one of the pipe inlets to the water pump should have been capped, the car does not have AC. Can anybody tell me what this pipe is and where it goes (leaking one)? Thanks.

I'm fairly sure that there's only one inlet to the water pump on the non-auto BX diesels that I know : that's the from the collector box, where several coolant pipes come together in one place at the back of the engine. Does your auto perhaps have an oil-cooler fitted?

[jeremy]

I take it this car as a 91 has the black fuel filter assembly etc over the thermostat - so it can't be the fuel heater adjacent to the water pump?

(Black plastic filter incorporates the heater - so not fitted at the back of the engine.)

[mat_fenwick]

I can see the leak is from the innermost pipe entering the water pump where the 2 small pipes run in parallel and enter into the rearmost part of the pump. This pipe returns upwards & along the wing but then moves forward and seems to disappear into the wing/chassis frame just below the fuel filter I cannot see where it goes.

That doesn't sound like a configuration I'm familiar with: a picture or two would speak a thousand words, if possible.

I think the pipe he is referring to is the lower hose to the bottom of the radiator - that runs underneath the front chassis leg. I've seen a couple thath have gone soft with an oil leak from the rocker cover, with the subsequent result that the pipe clip cuts into the hose...