I think this is a Lucas pump?

[Kitch]

I think it is, but would someone clarify? I've heard you can't run these on veg oil? Didn't buy the car specifically for that, but it would have been a bonus!

This is what a £400 Xsara TD looks like:

[toddao]

that is well gay.. poor Lucas pump

[toddao]

I thought it was the Bosch and not the Lucas that was bio diesel friendly at least on the Bx anyway. Hope no-one sees you driving it Kitch - just wear a balaclava and ignore comments like - that is well gay!

[TB2]

Another user (sleepy0905) used to run his Lucas pump with veg oil for more than two years. I wrote him a PM a while ago and asked how it was going and he confirmed that he didn't have any problems until he sold the car. Though I wont try it on my own Lucas pump

There have been quite a few threads about this. I'm not sure though what exactly could go wrong. It's "just" the seals being eaten by the oil, isn't it?

[Philip Chidlow]

Kitch, are you sure about this?

[Kitch]

Phil: No, thats why I was asking

TB2: Didn't knwo sleepy did that, I'll have to ask. I did run an old 205 on it without knowing what pump it had with no problems, and that was back when it was illegal

Todd: It's not gay, it doesn't have enough character to be gay. It's just there, like grass. But it serves a purpose; to be cheap, reliable, and to act as a decoy to potential Saxo attackers

[Philip Chidlow]

Phil: No, thats why I was asking

I meant, getting a burgundy Xsara... but seriously that's not bad for the money is it? What's it like to drive?

[docchevron]

To answer the original question.
Yes it is a Lucas pump.
And yes, you can run it on veg oil, for an indeterminate amount of time, but at some point the pump will implode and it wont go no more.

A bosch pump will also fail eventually, but they will last alot longer with the veg than a Lucas.

Either way it'll kill them both in the end.

[TB2]

I just found something posted by an "Anonymous" (signed Jules) about running the BX on veggie oil with some technical details about both pumps. Found it on this forum in a general discussion about the use of the Lucas/CAV pump with veg oil. Thought I might as well post it here. Is this anyone from the club?

Fitting out and running a Citroen BX on ‘veggy oil’ type fuels, and notes on swapping a Bosch for a Lucas injector pump system on a Citroen BX (non-turbo).

Dated 29th April 2005

Thanks to all those who answered various questions for me on forums and who have been kind enough to put their information on bio-fuels, veggy oil and injector pumps etc on the net for all of us!

Basically, the Lucas pumps are not well designed for use with viscose veggy oils and usually pack-up. Some people have had success with a dual-fuel system, warming and stopping the engine on Diesel before switching over to veggie supply, but life-expectancy is not good. A swap for a Bosch injector system is easy and cheap (circa £60 in used parts and a day of labour to remove an old pump from a car at the breakers, then go home and swap it for your own).

The upshot is that the pump swap is easy. If you swap a Bosch pump in place of a Lucas (or Roto-Diesel, which is a licenced copy of a Lucas) then you MUST swap in new pipes and injectors.

I got a Bosch and bits from the breakers: Injector pump (£40) plus the injectors themselves (£5 each) and pipes (thrown in).

When you remove the Bosch pump at the breakers, take the cast alloy mounting unit with you – the one which mounts it to the cylinder block.

It’s actually exactly the same as the one in cars fitted with Lucas pumps, but that the three main pump-mounting stud-bolts are mounted some ten degrees forward – in other words giving the pump a different timing. There are actually threaded holes ready so that in theory you can change the stud-bolts’ position on the mounting for either pump. However, each type of pump can be further finely timed by turning it back and forth over slotted mountings. Thus, if before you remove the pump at the breakers, you score a line with a knife blade etc. on the casting to show exactly where the injector was mounted, you can then reconstruct that exact timing when re-mounting it on your car at home. If you don’t do this, you will have to re-time your ‘new’ pump which is expensive or time-consuming. The alloy pump mounting castings are very accurately machined and have bolt-sleeves to position them on the block exactly before you bolt it tight (I’d say accurate to tenths of a millimetre, judging by eye) which means that you can maintain a satisfactorily accurate timing from these marks and need not worry about using this method.

Just as a point of interest as regards timing: if you mount the Bosch pump even some ten degrees wrong, like on the Lucas stud position, you can still get the engine to run, though you’ll get loads of smoke, hell to start and no tick-over. So the necessary accuracy of timing is relative – you can make a relatively large mistake and the engine will still run. But of course your engine should be timed with care for greater efficiency – it will last longer, be more efficient and better environmentally. The point is that mounting by using your own scored lines on the mounting alloy casting should be perfectly satisfactory. Bear in mind if you wish to run exclusively on vegetable oil, there are advantageous alterations to be made to the timing – which you can find on the internet. And similar alterations which can be made to the injectors themselves as regards injection angle, etc. – worth looking up if you are a perfectionist and/or have the time and money to do it!

I ran my last BX on a mixture of all kinds of bio-fuel (rapeseed oil, olive oil, sunflower oil,(each new and used) and diesel in turn, for two years with no alterations to pump timing or to injectors. Particle emissions were always low (I had them checked regularly on the MOT measuring apparatus whilst experimenting with the various fuels). Note that on a Diesel car it is only particle emissions which are tested at an MOT test – nothing else is tested whatsoever (in terms of emissions, that is - you still need to have a steering wheel and brakes an’ that!). The results were far above expectation – I got better MPG, quieter running and never a hassle with the engine of any kind. The only point of note was that starting on pure vegetable oil, one had to crank the engine a few times and put the glow plugs on a couple of times to start it - the more so on a cold day of course – but it started fine down to about zero degrees Celsius. After this point I needed a kettle of boiling water poured slowly over the injectors and injector pump to get her started. Not very elegant you may say, but I like simple solutions – and it just was not worth installing a dual-fuel system on a small car like a BX with its limited space.

The upshot was that running a BX normally I could achieve exactly 100 m.p.h. on the motorway (oops, autobahn, I mean, officer), flat-out (on the speedo, at any rate). But with pure rapeseed oil (no additives whatever) I could achieve exactly 110 m.p.h. - which must represent a power increase of over 15 percent. The engine was so quiet that it was actually dangerous – the only noise audible was the wind rushing over the car – and it was easy to drive too fast (this was combined with a circa 5-10% better m.p.g. than with Diesel fuel!)

The car was scrapped in the end – the rest of the car got too old to bother maintaining, but the engine is ‘perfect’ – I have kept it for future use!

Installing the ‘new’ Bosch pump is easy. Just make sure to put in the injectors correctly with their associated flame guards (little ‘washers’ which sit in the injector sleeve, below the injector where it meets the pre-chamber). I re-used the ones from the car I took the injectors from. I did not but any new parts at all – but was careful to check and clean all the bits before re-using them. I saw neither any necessity to have the injectors or pump serviced – just put the lot in as was. This may not be optimal, but I would think it unwise expenditure to tune to perfection what is essentially an old car. The net improvements on running bio-fuels are so great that there is no point nit-picking to pick up a few efficiency percentage points extra at large cost.

One point to note with the Citroen BX – some of the fuel uptakes (with fuel guage, etc) can be accessed without removing the tanks, some not (model dependant). However there is some obstruction on the uptake pipe – perhaps a pre-filter - which makes sucking more viscose fuel such as vegetable oil create a complete stoppage. This stoppage starves your engine of fuel and strains the injector pump. The solution is simple – blow the offending item off using a compressed air gun – you can hear whatever it is ‘pop’ off the other end in the fuel tank rather easily. (I have even done it with my mouth before now though it wasn’t easy!). I always ‘blow’ both feed and return pipes as a matter of course to make sure there are no partial blockages in any fuel pipes (which obviously worsen severely with more viscose bio-fuels). I note that on the BX the fuel level gauge ceases to work with viscose fuels for some reason – I have not bothered to try to engineer a remedy for this – but it is the only irksome feature of the conversion.

A heated fuel filter and a heat exchanger are all you need to complete a conversion to veggy-fuel. There are those who complain that veggy oil (being acidic) makes some sticky green goo if copper plumbing pipes are used to make the heat exchanger etc, though I have never found this a particular practical problem – just an observed one. For anyone who wants to be a ‘perfectionist’ you can use stainless steel micro-bore pipe. I have some for sale on eBay occasionally – ready made as a heat exchanger, or in short bits for you to make your own to keep the cost down. Contact me at greenerfuels.co.uk if you need any.

By the way, my present BX makes a little smoke when on Diesel – but none at all when on Veggy oil!

Wishing you many miles of environmentally clean motoring, Jules

[Kitch]

Interesting read. I'm not overly bothered, as veg oil isn't much cheaper these days. And if the Xsara doesn't pick it's economy up, it'll be moving on soon too. Don't even think it's averaging 40mpg yet, and I'm driving like a granny! At least I'll get more than £400 for it wherever I advetise it!

And it's not burgandy, it's maroon! It's like all Pug XUDTE's....it's got a heavy throttle pedal, a heavy clutch pedal, it stinks, it's got bundles of turbo lag and I'm not even sure it's great on fuel.

But it's also very refined once on the move, it actually picks a pace up nicely once up to motorway speeds (it's god-awful slow below 60mph) and you wouldn't know it was a diesel after you've reached 40mph (forgetting all the above)
It rides very nicely, the controls are well laid out, it's built fairly well though not quite on xantia levels and it's comfortable although not terrible supportive.

It's just a car at the end of the day. If it didn't ride so well and have the instantly recognisable XUD clatter, I'd swear it was Korean!

[Kitch]

Oh and the aircon did work nicely, until last night. The compressor still kicks in, but theres a kind of dried hissing behind the dash. Don't know if it's out of gas or it it has a leak. It worked for a few days before though, and I thought a leak might empty it pretty quick.

[DavidRutherford]

The compressor still kicks in,

In which case there is still gas in the system. If there was a leak, the LP switch would be preventing the compressor from running. Sounds like an air-flap fault rather than anything more serious.

If you're getting rubbish economy from it, it could probably do with a new set of injectors and the pump timing. Makes a massive difference on a 12-year old XUD.

[stuart_hedges]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I don't mind these, especially not for £400. That's a lot of car for the money in anybody's book. They're handsome in a bland sort of way, comfy, and not bad to drive.

Should have gone for a 1.4 petrol though - cheap tax and 45mpg even if you rag it!

[TB2]

The compressor still kicks in,

In which case there is still gas in the system. If there was a leak, the LP switch would be preventing the compressor from running.

By the way: the A/C on my BX ain't working, and I don't think the compressor kicks in. At least I can't hear a difference when I switch it on. Is there anything I can do by myself or will I need to bring it to a reconditioning service?

[Kitch]

David: Interesting point, I'll go and fire it up and see if I can spot a problem. Cheers!

Stuart: I found the 1.6 Xsara too gutless, so being as impatient as I am I'm pretty sure I'd hate the 1.4. I agree, it probably costs the same to run as a diesel these days, what with the extra premium for diesel. But with the 1.4 you get solid disc brakes and an MA gearbox etc...I don't want all of that! It'd feel like a basic ZX too much. But I bet I wouldn't have a stupid heavy clutch and throttle in a 1.4! This makes the TVR feel light to drive!