To scrap or not to scrap, that is the question...

[Jack]

Not completely sure I want to scrap it yet:





Ok, I admit, there are some issues...

The main one seems to be....

it's got a Cat

which is apparently terminal, unlike this



which can be fixed

and the small fact that the engine needs rebuilding and it won't start (but that's electrical).

Well it's just possible I might be open to offers from someone who wants a project either to restore a car that I'm starting to think is about as rare as a 4x4 if it's done up again, but more likely there will be a Phase 1 coming up for sale instead, either the grey valver Jon spent several months underneath, or the low-mileage silver Phase 1 with air conditioning, neither of which are going anywhere until this one moves two feet backwards!

Another complication is I'm under orders to get the red one moved now (read NOW) so it will have to have a one-way trip to a garage 12 miles away unless someone PMs me very quickly! They won't come and look at it and I'm not inclined to pay for a flatbed twice, so that's the choice - once it leaves here: scrap or rebuild at garage prices.

[DavidRutherford]

Can't see what's wrong with it myself. I'd just drive that as is.

(alright, I might reach into the arch and beat it out a bit with a hammer....)

[Kitch]

Scrapping that would be a crying shame. A 1/4 panel is something any bodyshop could put right and the engine can be repaired.

I don't think you could ask for offers from people on here either....if that car goes to someone on here, it needs to go to them FOC. They can then either repair it, or recycle many of the important bits from it.
Given that I've taken in a running example FOC, (all be it one that needs a few £££ spending and hasn't been on the road since 2001!) I can't take it on myself, but let's see who's really got the minerals on here to make it happen for that.

If anyone takes this car, I'll help/assist that person in any way I can.

[Jack]

Hi Kitch, your project is very much in my mind, but you are some distance away, and who knows once you've done your bit with that car, it won't be heading back this way for the bodywork anyway! But more than that, I think one of the others will have to go. TBH I've spent so much time agonising over this one it would be better to go and get some extra work to pay for it!

Doc said the engine could produce up to 155 bhp (148 stated) and someone's advertising some GTI stuff that says the 160bhp was 158. Only a whisker away then! Anyway, I don't think I'll get a doc rebuild, but I know I'd rather have that car and less power.

I think this is its second engine - how can I tell if its a CAT version or a standard please? when we bought it the Cat had been bypassed.

Anyway, I'm finding the options a bit complicated. Have ruled out the diesel option anyway after David's post!

[Kitch]

The catted engine is stamped DFW on the black ID plate just behind the O/S mount. It's not always possible to see it.

The D6C (not cat) kicks out 160bhp, the DFW 148bhp. Those are factory figures, the reality will depend on the condition of the engine at the time of testing.
A catted car is not a slouch as such, it just doesn't have the raw edge the non-cat does. This would only really be noticable if you drive around like your hair's on fire all the time.

Only thing I can suggest if you have to get rid is to officially offer it to anyone in the club (the longer standing, the better IMO) FOC as spares/repair. Scrapping it at the local yard is a pretty sad waste of the remaining good parts, although any decision is of course down to you alone. You have to do what you have to do!

If you want to keep it and fix it, that all depends on the damage sustained. Cat fitted cars have slightly different internals, so finding a second hand replacement may not be easy.

Ideally, you'd find a D6C replacement engine (not too hard, 3 on ebay lasttime I checked) and fit that, along with a D6C 3 row ECU and make some small alterations to the loom. The 2 ROW is a more hardcore map, but the 3 ROW will be more similar to what your car has now, and may even use the same connector.
I'm assuming in theory this is possible mind, I've never actually done it.

This will also give you the full 160bhp and will be easier to source than a replacement DFW lump, assuming yours cannot be repaired. It'd need to be split in some way though, I got mine running again having bent the crankshaft! Anything is possible.

[Jack]

David , if you could start it, you could drive it! But not quite as you know it.

The engine situation is complex, it was going to be my next post. I'm not a mechanic. and I can't afford to pay someone to fiddle around with it indefinitely. So to me the none standard hydraulics sounds like a big cost every single time they need changing. With all the gutted valvers around, that's a crying shame. Maybe we should get some made in China

sorry ,the engine. It's always overheated. 3 garages and £1800 and it's still overheated. Car more reliable than the warning lights, until I'm told it's cooked. BUT I drive it to the garage, and it's like riding a kangaroo. Foot to the floor to keep it going, then plenty of power from somewhere for 20 yards, then foot to the floor again! Not for the rush hour at the moment I'm afraid.

To make it more interesting the last garage (garage?) that had it scrambled the ECU and I couldn't get it started to drive it back. they drove it back to get rid of it and then took the battery out. Every time I have got power to it now the alarm goes off, I can't do anything now - we have neighbours!

So there are three issues with the engine.
Problem 1: the one I still haven't mentioned: the garage never got the throttle bank sorted. There's still some power there, but it's not controllable.
Problem 2, I don't think they could tune it. (politely stated)
Problem 3, well it did overheat....

[Jack]

Getting late sorry. The reference to the non-standard hydraulics in my last post referred to a TD engine fitted into a 16v body which I tried to get a price on to compare with the petrol engine rebuild.

and here's the engine pic. the last garage found it more interesting to get it running without using all the parts:

[Kitch]

The engine doesn't sound goosed and unrepairable to me, if it overheated and warped the head (causing a lack of compression through a blown headgasket and resulting in misfiring and general unwillingness to rev) then at worst it wants a replacement head and all the ancillaries switching over, as DFW's use different cams to most XU9J4's.
I can't see the block being no good, and thats good news.
ECU wise....they're so simple and basic they rarely fail. I suspect there are other problems with the car the garage are just not arsed about finding and have blamed the ECU. You can't really plug them in and read the info like modern ECU's, which is probably what they're used to....typing basically!

If I wasn't so far away I'd take a look. It certainly doesn't sound too far past it IMO.

[DLM]

I feel this car's certainly not past it - though I know next to nothing about the 16v engine and have only owned one fuel-injected BX. What it needs is someone who knows their BX16vs, or is prepared to learn. Many garages will run a mile: the only BX16v-running garage mechanics I've come across were in Middlesex (probably long gone) and South Wales.

However, I do notice something from the picture : I wouldn't expect ANY petrol BX to run consistently and happily for very long without any oil breather tubes in place.

Alarms, if aftermarket ones, can just be a nuisance after a while, and if more than a few years old are better removed or replaced anyway. If the alarm has been directly wired into the central locking then all sorts of little problems can occur - you might just have a sticky sensor or switch somewhere.

[Way2go]

BUT I drive it to the garage, and it's like riding a kangaroo. Foot to the floor to keep it going, then plenty of power from somewhere for 20 yards, then foot to the floor again! Not for the rush hour at the moment I'm afraid.

To make it more interesting the last garage (garage?) that had it scrambled the ECU and I couldn't get it started to drive it back. they drove it back to get rid of it and then took the battery out.

This problem may be solved by getting the injectors cleaned and serviced.

Injector problems seem progressive, begins with reduced performance but car runs reasonably OK, then later takes a lot of cranking to start the car but again seems to run reasonably well once started, then the third stage is definite rough running on 3 or less cylinders and by this time the car is uncomfortable to drive.

[Kitch]

However, I do notice something from the picture : I wouldn't expect ANY petrol BX to run consistently and happily for very long without any oil breather tubes in place.

The pipe won't make too much of a difference to the running, if anything it'll only affect the oil pressure/breathing system. The other hose next to it is the crucial one...without that it'd run like a lump of shite (although it looks to have been bodged with sealant on the intake hose!)

My initial thoughts are that it's had a load of people unfamiliar to the quirks of the engine go over it and clearly fail to notice important aspects.
I've got plenty of spares here, so trial and error is always an option.

Poor running on a valver under load would normally be one of the following:

Spark plug chambers damp.

Intake manifold gasket perished (it's only paper!)

Breather hoses

Mickey-mouse dizzy cap/rotor arm or broken down leads.


Only time I've been stumped is on my own car, where it's developed a funny quirk of running shite at very light throttle only! Weird!

[Jack]

Hi everyone, thanks for all your comments. On reflection, to break or not to break would have been a better title.

Power must be coming from somewhere so I hopefully not too much mechanical damage.

I couldn’t see any black plate with the engine number. I'll try again tomorrow

The last time a proper Citroen specialist looked at it was two years ago for a routine service. Since then it’s had things done for MOTs at non-Cit garages and running problems.

[Jack]

Alarm is s a Scorpion Cat 1 with additional touch key. I found the manual and stamped installation certificate, but I haven't yet found the PIN. Hopefully that's filed somewhere else here, not somewhere else with the last owner.
I can try the 'Remote Control Re-synchromisation' procedure tomorrow anyway

Waytogo, that sounds encouraging, but I don't remember starting being a particular issue. Cutting out on idle certainly was, coming up to roundabouts, or worse in the middle of the road turning right. That was one of the symptoms that got this guy disconnecting tubes and other experiments.

[Way2go]

Waytogo, that sounds encouraging, but I don't remember starting being a particular issue. Cutting out on idle certainly was, coming up to roundabouts, or worse in the middle of the road turning right. That was one of the symptoms that got this guy disconnecting tubes and other experiments.

Cutting out on idle is a symptom along with a 'hunting' tickover. My tickover has been dead smooth since the clean/service at 890 rpm when warmed up and about 1000rpm when first started and cold.

[Kitch]

Waytogo, that sounds encouraging, but I don't remember starting being a particular issue. Cutting out on idle certainly was, coming up to roundabouts, or worse in the middle of the road turning right. That was one of the symptoms that got this guy disconnecting tubes and other experiments.

He's tried playing with the breathers that control the Idle Control Valve, when the TPS has actually died, or just needs adjusting. Any money on that one!