Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

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Slagtrooper
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Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Slagtrooper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:05 pm

It was only with me or the T27's of the Autobox pan (or other places with these bolts or even torxes of different measures?) are easily torn by the torx sockets/spanners? Almost all bolts got destroyed, getting round inside. How you managed to remove it, without welding machine?
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:13 pm

Its not perfect as some fasteners are beyond saving but have you tried:

EZGrip
Or Screw Grab

Best to use first before you round the heads off. Its like magic in a bottle when it does work!

I'd replace the bolts when you re-assemble if you can; maybe with hex-head ones.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Slagtrooper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:43 pm

Bolts need replacing for sure. Sadly i bought a T27 socket for using with 1/2 handle or ratchet only for doing that :?
But if the torx ones become pricey than hex, changing it will be my option. And a good one - Will become the autobox pan easier to service.

I can't find equivalent thing like that friction promoter you said, James, it's incredible how you have tools for all kind of things. If i can find one of these in Brazil, they could have a different name/brand. I will try first that "rubber band" trick for removing it. Reading about torning apart the torx bolts, found that it isn't a rare issue.
Citroën BX GTi 1993
. XU9JAZ engine, ZF 4HP14 Automatic gearbox
. Leather Seats, Air Conditioner, electric mirrors, windows and sunroof
. "16V type" Speedline Rims, "Ducktail" spoiler and rear vents
ORGA 5219 (February 22, 1991) - Made in Uruguay

Hot steamy night alone, I wait for you ♫ Cold brittle morning alone and I cry for you ♪ And when you finally call ♫ You cloak your moves in the shadows ♪♫♪

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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Way2go » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Generally torx are superior and less likely to become rounded than Allen(hex). On many bolts/nuts on the BX it is a wise move to apply a liberal coating of penetating oil prior to attempting to undo them, as you have to remember that many have beenin place for over 20 years now. :)
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:52 pm

I see you are in Brazil. The products are both American so hopefully you could have them posted cheaply, at least its the same continent!

Try aviation tool suppliers on-line in the USA maybe. I have heard of The Yard and Sky Geek over there.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by jamescarruthers » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:56 pm

Way2go wrote:Generally torx are superior and less likely to become rounded than Allen(hex). On many bolts/nuts on the BX it is a wise move to apply a liberal coating of penetating oil prior to attempting to undo them, as you have to remember that many have beenin place for over 20 years now. :)

Yes, you are right, allen key type are even worse. I meant replace with regular hex headed bolts (unless there is some particular reason why you need to an internally driven fastener in this application).
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Tinkley » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:38 pm

I have to disagree - slightly. More important is the quality of the steel and roll forging of the fasterner itself and the tolerance of the drive (head). Good quality tools also help, like Bahco etc socket sets and good German Allen keys. The Torx were introduced primarily to stop people 'DIY' along with a load of other tamperproof fasteners. In fact when they introduced them you had to prove you were a 'Competent Person' ie trade mechanic etc for example to even buy a Torx set of drivers.

It was one of the little changes on the Solex carb between my 88 14RE and these 91 1.6s'. Guess they did not want 'amateurs' fiddling with the auto box eh? The manual BE3 box on the 1.6 is still held on by 4 Allens so that seems OK and mine came off just fine, last year.

Solution is whatever the head fastener type, buy quality steel 8.8 HTS grade most likely, with good plating. Always check the material designation, there may be a few 10.9 or 12.9 grade bolts/fasteners around on the BX - I don't know. Should be stamped on the head, Hex or Allen for sure. The non structural can be subbed with A2 stainless (304) or if you really want anti corrossion A4 (316) but they are harder to find and pretty dear.

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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by mds141 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:10 pm

I've found that using a T30 Torx big on a T27 allows for greater purchase.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Slagtrooper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:37 pm

Living and learning - Never thought that metal grades of fasteners and drives are heavily affected with it's characteristics...

I admit that i used a low quality wrench (Only "respected" its size, T27) and noticed that in some heads it fit a little loose and in others, a little tight.

Last thursday came home one of these that i ordered from a net store:

Image

I prefer working with sockets than wrenches, but was anxious and used the damn chinese tool. :(
Citroën BX GTi 1993
. XU9JAZ engine, ZF 4HP14 Automatic gearbox
. Leather Seats, Air Conditioner, electric mirrors, windows and sunroof
. "16V type" Speedline Rims, "Ducktail" spoiler and rear vents
ORGA 5219 (February 22, 1991) - Made in Uruguay

Hot steamy night alone, I wait for you ♫ Cold brittle morning alone and I cry for you ♪ And when you finally call ♫ You cloak your moves in the shadows ♪♫♪

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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Defender110 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:50 pm

Way2go wrote:Generally torx are superior and less likely to become rounded
As this /\ . I find them much better and have only ever rounded one when I was actually using the wrong size by mistake. Some of the sizes are very close and will drive with the next down, when using the correct size it is more normal for the bit to break than the fastener to round.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Slagtrooper » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:15 pm

So, about what kind of bolts i could use in the pan (after removing all the old ones), the best is sticking with the torx heads, check?

I will try to do the rubber band trick, but i'm a little skeptic about it...
Citroën BX GTi 1993
. XU9JAZ engine, ZF 4HP14 Automatic gearbox
. Leather Seats, Air Conditioner, electric mirrors, windows and sunroof
. "16V type" Speedline Rims, "Ducktail" spoiler and rear vents
ORGA 5219 (February 22, 1991) - Made in Uruguay

Hot steamy night alone, I wait for you ♫ Cold brittle morning alone and I cry for you ♪ And when you finally call ♫ You cloak your moves in the shadows ♪♫♪

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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by mat_fenwick » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:12 pm

I'd probably stick with Torx or same strength external hex bolts, as at least they are generally easier to remove if rounded off. It may help in future to give the tool a sharp tap with a hammer once it is position in the fastener. This will both ensure it is fully seated, and also help to break any bond with what it's screwed into.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Slagtrooper » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:14 pm

My answer to remove them:

Image
"Special bolt remover tools".

Image

And obviously, change the bolts for hex heads or even something like this:

Image
Citroën BX GTi 1993
. XU9JAZ engine, ZF 4HP14 Automatic gearbox
. Leather Seats, Air Conditioner, electric mirrors, windows and sunroof
. "16V type" Speedline Rims, "Ducktail" spoiler and rear vents
ORGA 5219 (February 22, 1991) - Made in Uruguay

Hot steamy night alone, I wait for you ♫ Cold brittle morning alone and I cry for you ♪ And when you finally call ♫ You cloak your moves in the shadows ♪♫♪

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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Thread Bear » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:11 am

I do not rate Torx and their chums. It is often a case of obstruction and minimum strength for the job. All part of the just in time, just strong enough world we are told to accept. Thus they fail to work once passed a certain level of performance. The sort of thing I routinely replace in passing for better fastners on doing a job, if I am keeping a car.
Nice bit of quality steel on a fastener is the only sure answer. Case in point, those bloody useless Chinese self tappers that shear of half way in. What is the point in even making them? To frustrate the west into submission? Well really self tappers are a crap fastener in themselves, for longevity, and a proper engineer would normally be avoiding them. Its all a question of degree of crapness. Take the latest kettle I was given. In two weeks the boiling water has melted the plastic fastener that holds the lid shut. So this energy saving design now uses more energy than the old kettle, as it has no functioning lid. A brilliant bit of modern engineering..... We are all going to die if this keeps up, you know.
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Re: Torx T27 - Removing and destroying

Post by Tinkley » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:59 am

Having designed a few kettles, toasters, and other catering kit, commercial and domestic, I can relate well to your post TB. I can assure you that before making things like plastic handles for S/S bodies we got a sheet of 30mm thick similar type polymer (to that intended) and with bandsaw, router and assorted hand tools fabricated intended design and cycled many many times. Whole load of issues could have arisen, but fortunately none did. Never had melt down, fasteners stayed tight, hand did not easily get too hot/burnt etc etc.

Tested a load of toasters once too, all 2 slot ones. We decided 10 cycles at full length with no toast in would sort the better designs - and we were right, about 50% started to melt their plastic housings or show other wear signs. All were brand new CE marked etc - really gives you confidence...... :wink:

Good design may cost a little more but a good product does it's job and is hardly noticed. Hand in hand with good engineering and ergonomics (physical and GUIs'), it is a shame too much 'stuff' is purely driven by price which is ultimately more expensive as it so often fails!.

Agreed with quality fasteners and tools, check and double check. Case in point - Chinese needle files over Swiss ones - no contest. The Torx design is not in itself bad, as per my earlier post it was intended partly to stop 'amateurs' ie not qualified monkeys from fiddling with things. However if you make a good design with poor quality material the result lets down the basic geometry, which in this case is actually pretty sound, although I prefer good Allen heads even if this seems irrational. I'm sure those who owned Japanese M/cycles in the 70s' loved the Pozi drive heads on the crankcases whereas the Italians fitted quality Allen head bolts!.